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Archive 2016 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

RustyBug
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

I've shot without an AA filter (Kodak SLR/C) for many years and recently picked up the 80D as Canon lowered the base ISO. But, the heavy AA filter is putting me off a bit, and I still would like it gone (3rd party removal service).

I'm a bit torn @ prospect of the D500 + some retooling of glass with the Sigma Art series (I'll likely do regardless of mount) in the form of the 24-35/2 and the 50-100/2 or simply pulling out the AA filter from the 80D.

Leaning toward the D500, atm (current sale, etc.) for the sensor & presumed AF performance, as well as the AA diff. Video (not my gig) is better, dual cards & more robust format XQD for one card). FPS is better (marginal importance), and

at other factors. Relinquishing full articulation screen for tilting screen, but both are touch, so that's an okay aspect.

My gut is telling me that the D500 is the better camera for the long haul, and I have little faith that Canon will ever truly kick the AA filter to the curb. (Just consider it my preference for various reasons discussed elsewhere.) Even though, the 80D caught my attention @ base ISO and articulating screen, that consumer grade AA filter isn't my gig.

Posted in both camps ... thoughts

Nov 27, 2016 at 11:37 AM

snapsy
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

THe perceived difference in sharpness on the D500 is aliasing. With proper sharpening you shouldn't be able to tell them apart. You can try your hand at it by downloading equivalent raws here.

D500's touchscreen is only for AF and image review so it's pretty limited - Canon's touchscreen implementation is much better since it lets you also use it for menus and camera control.

Nov 27, 2016 at 11:55 AM

snapsy
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

Btw, here's a good write-up of the sharping to apply to get camera with an AA filter close to an AA-less camera (D800 vs D800E), with actual MTF measurements as well.

http://blog.falklumo.com/2012/05/d800-aa-filter.html

Nov 27, 2016 at 12:07 PM

RustyBug
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

Thanks ... gotcha @ touchscreen diff's.

Thanks for the link, but the D800E ... it still uses an AA filter, just the offsetting variety so the diff / gain isn't quite the same as going true no-AA filter (my preference). I'm pre-suming the D500 has none (vs. the offsetting variety of the D800E or 5DsR).

Nov 27, 2016 at 12:27 PM

EB-1
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

The D7200 is the counterpart to the 80D and I bought both this year.
AA filter is not the main difference. The D500 is more in the 7D II category for speed and reach.

I'm not generally a fan of using APS-C unless necessary. The IQ from the 36-50 MP bodies is just so much nicer.

EBH

Nov 27, 2016 at 12:32 PM

RustyBug
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

+1 @ D500 is akin to 7D II (which has a fixed display).

+1 @ FF looks nicer, although, I'm thinking that the Sigma Art series can help offset the APS-C diff.

I've really been holding out for Canon (vested glass) to bring an articulating display in a FF also.
Neck injury, the moving screen makes a diff for me. Pain has a way of interfering with things ... but, I'm beginning to wonder if Canon will ever bring an articulating display in FF.

Figured I might start with the D500 and build with

Nikon FF. With Canon, I'm left looking at 6D II or 5DsR II to have an articulating screen (Sony's E mount not for me @ ergonomics, A9 =

) ... just not feeling it coming.

Nov 27, 2016 at 12:50 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

Having used cameras with and without AA filtering, I think that people both overestimate the potential differences and perhaps misunderstand the factors encouraging the removal of filtering.

More than the slight improvement in image sharpness (real, but quite tiny when you compare optimally post processed photographs) I think it is that we have come to realize the AA filtering simply isn't necessary at this point. I don't encounter aliasing issues with non-AA-filtering cameras any more often than I had them on cameras that apply the filtering.

I'm quite certain that it is simply not worth the bother of removing the filtering from cameras than come with it.

Dan

Nov 27, 2016 at 12:59 PM

Zenon Char
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

If you have the AA filter removed you lose the auto dust cleaning.

Nov 27, 2016 at 01:11 PM

RustyBug
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

gdanmitchell wrote:
Having used cameras with and without AA filtering, I think that people both overestimate the potential differences and perhaps misunderstand the factors encouraging the removal of filtering.

More than the slight improvement in image sharpness (real, but quite tiny when you compare optimally post processed photographs) I think it is that we have come to realize the AA filtering simply isn't necessary at this point. I don't encounter aliasing issues with non-AA-filtering cameras any more often than I had them on cameras that apply the filtering.

I'm quite certain that it is simply not worth the bother of removing the filtering from...Show more →

Dan,

There are different levels of AA filtering put in different models of cameras. Certain cameras use WEAK AA filters ... and for THOSE cameras, the difference vs. a no AA camera are indeed good candidates for using PP to bridge the diff. In fact, that is part of what brought me from Nikon to Canon several years ago (1D II N) for the then "lighter" AA filtering than I was using in the D70s ... followed by the Kodak SLR/C.

But, for those cameras that use heavier (i.e. read consumer vs. others) AA filters, the difference isn't quite as nominal. The broad statement that there isn't much of a difference isn't really an accurate one.

The 80D, while I like it in most regards, does seem to have a rather heavy handed filter. The question here isn't to re-hash the AA filter discussion (I will be shooting no AA again one way or the other @ my preference) ... but, rather the path to get there @ 80D removal vs. begin to move away from Canon.

Nov 27, 2016 at 01:21 PM

snapsy
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

gdanmitchell wrote:
I don't encounter aliasing issues with non-AA-filtering cameras any more often than I had them on cameras that apply the filtering.

Aliasing issues are a mathematical certainty. Whether or not they're perceived as an issue by a photographer is a subjective matter concerning ones views about false detail being objectionable in images. And by false detail I don't mean the more obvious manifestations like moiré.

Nov 27, 2016 at 01:29 PM

RustyBug
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

+1 @ mathematical

Pieces of the math puzzle include lens (glass & aperture), light, subject, sensor. Most of my shooting does not incorporate the pieces of the puzzle in a way that creates objectionable false detail. On occasion, the stars have aligned for some false detail, but moire' has never been an issue for me in all my years of shooting the SLR/C @ 14MP with no AA filter.

I see no reason for me to be concerned with it now (especially @ much smaller pixels) ... so why should I fuzz things up intentionally. Imo, that only amplifies diffraction issues worse and steals contrast from contrast challenged lens/light/scene. It's just something that I have never found a need for (as noted elsewhere).

YMMV

Nov 27, 2016 at 01:55 PM

RustyBug
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

Zenon Char wrote:
If you have the AA filter removed you lose the auto dust cleaning.

Thanks ... valid point (I think).

Although, I'm not quite sure why that would be, since the filter is replaced with glass.

Nov 27, 2016 at 01:58 PM

snapsy
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

RustyBug wrote:
+1 @ mathematical

Pieces of the math puzzle include lens (glass & aperture), light, subject, sensor. Most of my shooting does not incorporate the pieces of the puzzle in a way that creates objectionable false detail. On occasion, the stars have aligned for some false detail, but moire' has never been an issue for me in all my years of shooting the SLR/C @ 14MP with no AA filter.

I see no reason for me to be concerned with it now (especially @ much smaller pixels) ... so why should I fuzz things up intentionally. Imo, that only amplifies diffraction issues...Show more →

The issue is that it's impossible to know whether detail is false or not. Aliasing isn't always visible as moiré - in fact for natural subjects it's rarely so.

Nov 27, 2016 at 02:42 PM

ggreene
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

RustyBug wrote:
The question here isn't to re-hash the AA filter discussion (I will be shooting no AA again one way or the other @ my preference) ... but, rather the path to get there @ 80D removal vs. begin to move away from Canon.

I would say your decision really comes down to glass as you are going for an AA-less body one way or the other. Go with the body that offers you the lenses you like the best. I would say glass will make a far greater difference in image quality then the minor improvement with no AA filter.

Nov 27, 2016 at 02:59 PM

Mark_L
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

If you are so serious about IQ that something this small bothers you why do you have an 80D and shoot with zooms? Buy a used D800E/D810 and have 36MP (and no AA filter and 14+ stop of DR).

The D7200 has no AA filter (same with D5500) and is closer to the 80D than the D500.

Edited on Nov 27, 2016 at 03:42 PM · View previous versions

Nov 27, 2016 at 03:11 PM

Zenon Char
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

RustyBug wrote:
Thanks ... valid point (I think).

Although, I'm not quite sure why that would be, since the filter is replaced with glass.

I went to one of the companies web site that does that and that is what it said. I don't really know why but I decided against it.

Nov 27, 2016 at 03:41 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

Nov 27, 2016 at 04:27 PM

rico
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

I'd prefer the D500 provide AA, but I guess we can't have everything.

Don't know about the D750, but the D3X AA is pretty weak and generates moire on fabric all the time (I'm usually in the studio). The D7100 (no AA) is barely worse in that regard. As snapsy said, false data is biting you in detailed areas whether visible as moire, or not. Check out the Leica M9 rendering "crunchy" grass. Aliasing can be fixed mathematically by imposing an effective low-pass optical filter, and the handy one is called f/16!

False data at your service, SOOC, uncropped, f/5.6:

Nov 27, 2016 at 05:03 PM

charles.K
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

Hi Rusty. I agree I like sensors without the AA filters also, mathematical, effects of moire or not. Having moved to the M9 after 7 years with Canon/Rebel/10D/20D/5D/5DII the images appeared to have had a veil removed from them in Lr/PS. It goes with out saying that a very implemented/weak AA are also excellent but their effects vary a lot depending on the body/lenses.

I don't feel removing the AA filter is a good idea as it affects the performance of the camera is so many other ways. I had the the Kolari mod on the A7r, and yes it was better with a select few lenses, but it proved to be worse with native lenses.

I do relate to your injury, as I have had my bottom 3 vertebrae injured with carrying excessive weight back packing and horse riding when I was younger, so carrying excessive weight is very important when we are traveling through Asia.

I have the Fuji XT2 x2, no AA filter and also the D810/750 (portraits), purchased used at below 1/2 the normal cost. So really no downside. What I like about Nikon is the attention to keeping the weight down on lenses and using poly carbonates. The 300 PF is a great example of this.

I really think the D500 is a great choice for wildlife/birding/action and it is well priced with the 200-500. Maybe just rent the combo for a week and see if you like it

Nov 27, 2016 at 05:08 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · D500 vs. remove AA @ 80D ...

RB, I think you are under the impression that I wrote something different than what I actually wrote.

If you think you must have no AA filtering, just get a camera without it. If you cannot find one that meets your other shooting needs, don't worry about it.

Dan

RustyBug wrote:
Dan,

There are different levels of AA filtering put in different models of cameras. Certain cameras use WEAK AA filters ... and for THOSE cameras, the difference vs. a no AA camera are indeed good candidates for using PP to bridge the diff. In fact, that is part of what brought me from Nikon to Canon several years ago (1D II N) for the then "lighter" AA filtering than I was using in the D70s ... followed by the Kodak SLR/C.

But, for those cameras that use heavier (i.e. read consumer vs. others) AA filters, the difference isn't quite as nominal....Show more →

Nov 27, 2016 at 05:24 PM

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