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Archive 2016 · Lens preferred for black and white? do u differentiate?

  
 
rsrsrs
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Lens preferred for black and white? do u differentiate?


i like the zony 55mm very much, but when it comes to b\w im not sure.
perhaps i would like to see more retro look ...



Nov 26, 2016 at 05:40 AM
teiki arii
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Lens preferred for black and white? do u differentiate?


Hello,
I am a fan of Leica-R lenses before digital era. It came when I used for the first time Leica Summilux-R 80/1.4 in 90's with slides. This lens was amazing to incorporate tolerances of high lights. Very mellow wide opened. Then I bought Leica summicron-R 50/2 & 35/2 of the Walter Mandler team too. Very nice in B&W compared to Nikon and Canon at that time. But I have to admit Carl Zeiss is beautiful as well... Leica- Elmarit-R 28/2.8 and Summicron-R Apo Asph. 90/2 are very nice too but combining hight contrast, high resolution and marvellous grayscale ..
My last B&W example with Leica Summicron-R 50/2..
For modern lens, try the Sigma Art 50/1.4 or Carl Zeiss Planar 50/1.4. What about Carl Zeiss Milvus 50/1.4?




Nov 26, 2016 at 09:05 AM
JohnJ
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Lens preferred for black and white? do u differentiate?


Interesting question. I tend to think the sensor is the more import factor, also the subject but that is obvious. I shoot about 70% BW these days since going to sony a7rii using the same lenses i used for years on a canon 5d2.

When i shot film and printed bw i found the tonal gradation from a mamiya rz 6x7 negative gave far superior images to those shot on 35mm with great leica or contax lenses. I think the same principle holds today where a sensor with better dynamic range gives a more pliable file from which to work.

Harsh bokeh is far more prominent with bw. This could be good or bad depending on your intent but i far prefer the fe 1.8/55 for bw because of the combination of biting sharpness with smooth bokeh.



Nov 26, 2016 at 03:31 PM
rdeloe
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Lens preferred for black and white? do u differentiate?


[Ooops. Botched message deleted.]

Edited on Nov 26, 2016 at 04:08 PM · View previous versions



Nov 26, 2016 at 04:04 PM
rdeloe
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Lens preferred for black and white? do u differentiate?


This is a can of worms! There are properties of lenses that we can measure objectively. And then there's this kind of property....

I'm curious what others think. I'm a skeptic. When I read that a particular lens has some special qualities that make it suitable for black and white I'm raising my eyebrows. I say this as someone who shoots exclusively for black and white using digital equipment. There are so many other variables at play besides the lens. The sensor, the photographer's technique, the post-processing routine...

I've used lots of vintage manual lenses (Canon FD, Nikon AIS, SMC Pentax, Takumars, Olympus Zuiko, SMC Pentax 645, Ricoh, and Zeiss). I also have some modern Voigtlanders. Some were sharper, some a bit more contrasty, but all created files that worked well for black and white in my digital workflow.

What exactly would you say someone should look for in a lens that supposedly is better for black and white, and at what point in the workflow would we see this (e.g., in the RAW file, during processing, after printing)? Thoughts?



Nov 26, 2016 at 04:07 PM
LightShow
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Lens preferred for black and white? do u differentiate?


I've been quite happy with B&W conversions from most of my lenses, though I don't do it often because I prefer colour.
I think it's far more important to get good tonal range in your capture than what lens you use, though good colour balance will help.
What helps me is to set the camera to B&W jpg mode and shoot RAW, that way you are composing in B&W but still capturing all the data.

I also found that I don't mind using lenses with higher levels of CA for B&W shooting/conversion, because the CA just disappears.
The ideal lens for B&W will likely be different for everyone, because personal taste is different for everyone.

I would like to see more monochrome cameras being made, as I think some people would really like it as an option.



Nov 26, 2016 at 04:26 PM
JonPB
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Lens preferred for black and white? do u differentiate?


To my eye, the crucial difference between lenses for color or black & white images is in luminance blooming around highlights. In color, I'm more likely to see how the color of the subject shifts in the glare; with black and white, I'm more likely to see it as an expression of how the light source is "whiter than white." My thought is that, for the glare to be convincing, the subject affected by glare needs to be of consistent chroma, which is easy to achieve with B&W but difficult with real-life subjects rendered in color. In the studio or movie set, it is easier to arrange subjects to accommodate the light. But that's not how I shoot.

This is not even close to the largest difference between lenses, of course. Resolution fall-off, contrast, chromatic aberrations, vignetting, and bokeh rendering all matter. (While greyscale images conceal chromatic effects from attracting attention for rendering contrasting colors, they still render the resulting luminance effects of CA.) However, my taste in all of these things is pretty much consistent between shooting in color or B&W. Luminance blooming, however, is not something I've ever much appreciated in color for my general purpose work, while I do tend to like it in B&W. Which is why I think luminance blooming is something to consider when looking at the difference between lenses between color and B&W.

That said, I'm not much of an expert in this. I haven't shot older lenses extensively over the past few years, and they're the ones that tend toward gregarious glare. One correlation is that they also have other optical attributes of being designed and manufactured in a different era. My inexperience notwithstanding, I still have an opinion on the matter. :-)

On the other hand, the Sony 55/1.8 is by all accounts an excellent optic. It is very crisp and high contrast. If it isn't to your taste, I'd recommend reducing global contrast in your images during post. Your first-glance read of the image will be negative because the mind likes contrast, so take a batch of images, reduce the contrast setting for all of them by a fair amount, then come back to the photos a day or a week later. You'll likely see more textural contrast than you did before, which will draw your eye more into the scene. I find that texture in B&W often serves the same function as color contrast in color images, providing nuance and detail upon second impression and keeping the viewer interested. Personally, I love working in B&W, but I always start with a flat image -- which is not what you'll get with a 55/1.8 OOC from an A7. This will also give you an idea of what it is like working with an older lens, which tend to have lower global contrast from the start, without having to buy anything.

Now I want to go shooting with my pre-SMC Takumar lenses.

Cheers,
Jon



Nov 26, 2016 at 06:41 PM
retrofocus
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Lens preferred for black and white? do u differentiate?


I am shooting both color and B&W, also digital and film. There is clearly a difference between digital and film, but I admittedly see no difference that one lens does better or worse regarding color or B&W. Some lenses have a tendency to be "warmer" in color tones, others are "colder" and more towards to bluish side. I don't see this slight difference appearing in the negative or digital image when shooting B&W - this means I still need a yellow filter even with a "warmer" lens for pure B&W shooting.


Nov 26, 2016 at 06:54 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Lens preferred for black and white? do u differentiate?


I think that Lightshow has made 3 salient points.

1) Lenses with more CA that you might like to shoot for other reasons are now in the game a bit more than with color.

2) Good color balance is STILL IMPORTANT as this influences your contrast

3) Shooting RAW to retain your full data, while shooting jpg for composition is helpful

As to the lenses themselves ... different drawing styles abound, so that's just a matter of personal pref. Just kinda depends on what I'm striving for (smooth tonality vs. high contrast, etc.), and I don't know that I've yet discerned lenses (per se) that are better suited for mono, as it can vary just as much as color. Matching a lens drawing style to your desired style ... I think that is an ongoing issue, no matter if it is color or mono for your palette.

So, if you're going for a retro look, then a retro drawing style lens would be the choice.



Nov 27, 2016 at 01:11 PM
Two23
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Lens preferred for black and white? do u differentiate?


I mostly shoot uncoated pre-war lenses for b&w. And, either FP4 or HP5.


Kent in SD



Nov 27, 2016 at 01:20 PM
teiki arii
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Lens preferred for black and white? do u differentiate?


JohnJ wrote I think the same principle holds today where a sensor with better dynamic range gives a more pliable file from which to work.
I actually agree with you. A sensor with a better dynamic range and a better resolution sensor (More you have Mp better it is) gives you a better tonal gradation which is crucial for B&W. I noticed it when I bought Pentax K-1 vs Canon EOS 6D. The 6D files are more versatile but K-1 ones are huge in terms of rendering. I still have to adapt myself to these RAW files but there are less artefacts on post-processing. Working on it demands more skills than 6D files. I do not use NR nor specific hardware improvements of K-1 in highlights, perhaps I should...

JohnJ wroteHarsh bokeh is far more prominent with bw. This could be good or bad depending on your intent but i far prefer the fe 1.8/55 for bw because of the combination of biting sharpness with smooth bokeh.
The Sigma Art 50/1.4 has a very nice bokeh too and is very good in every compartment but more difficult to work than Leica-R in highlights IMHO.. CA reduction is essential IMHO in B&W. Leica-R 28/35/50/90AA are so small and lightweight that I can put them in my pockets, that is a reason also why I work with them.. To be honest, If I were younger, I would go for new lenses which are excellent. Since I have already my Leica-R lenses, I know them very well, I love them for their weight/quality ratio, I keep them...




Nov 28, 2016 at 08:17 AM





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