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Archive 2016 · They All Want CD's
  
 
gmff
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · They All Want CD's


Everybody that has called about Christmas photos have all wanted the images. I am an old guy that does not want to give up the images. I have always shared the images for Christmas cards through my printed. Should I reevaluate what I am doing and let the images go or keep the "no image" thing going. How do I price for giving the images away?
Thanks



Nov 22, 2016 at 08:25 PM
Copypaste
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · They All Want CD's


This is how I do it:

I charge $600-650 for a basic session like that. My price includes all the good images (typically 20-60 images from a 30-45min session). I upload the images in full resolution to a temporary website where they can download them one by one or as a zip file (filemail.com). My starter price for any shoot is $600-650 (and that's where a typical "portrait session" or anything similar is at, and I normally finish in 30-40mins), and that price includes it all. End of job after that.

I am located in Norway. Prices surely vary.



Nov 22, 2016 at 08:36 PM
sonofjesse2010
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · They All Want CD's


You have a customer wanting to PAY you for services/goods you currently do NOT offer. The question is for me is due want to sell what the customer wants or d you want to turn down a sell?

I know everything in these situations vary...and can vary a lot. I have a friend who sell's prints.

All of my customers 100% want digital deliver only, I have never had anybody want anything else in 2016. However that is based on your client base.

I would 100% SELL these photos , since it will be a "new" revenue stream for your bussiness.

The "big" question is what will you need to price these "digital files" to make a profit. You will need to calculate what your business costs are. If you have any historical data, I would try to base it off of that. Normally customers purchased 300 in prints up front then 1 year later would purchase another 50 dollars. That is 350 dollars, you had 10 clients do that. So your avg for prints was 350 dollars. I would then say you could sell these for 350, since you have no printing costs. However everything varies and that is just a general example. (I pulled 350 out of thin air here for an example)

In my experience, people will be on the other side, of its digital nothing is delivered, so it should "cheaper" and they want the digital prints for nothing or dirt cheap. I would still try to estimate your costs and throw that price out.

I think selling digital prints will open up new customers to you. I personally think never selling a digital image, unless you have your clients 100% nailed down and their going to live forever that you will have to change with photography or get left. That is my personal opinion for my photography YMMV.

sorry to be so long winded....



Nov 22, 2016 at 11:52 PM
glort
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · They All Want CD's



Hello old Guy. If that is you in the avatar you are a really old guy which is great because you look how I feel.
I think I understand where you are coming from so let me give you a real definition of long winded.
The previous posters have given some good feedback I think but let me ramb..... add to that.


gmff wrote:
Everybody that has called about Christmas photos have all wanted the images. I am an old guy that does not want to give up the images.


Yes, Most everyone except other old people like us WILL want the digital images. Maybe you have to understand why. They want them to email, to put onto cards they will print themselves using software like word that has the provision built in, they will want them for slide shows and to print to give friends and relies etc.
Prints, as are my preference for most things, simply cannot fill these needs.

To jump ahead a little, it sounds like you come from the age I did where giving away " Negatives" was akin to giving away your left nut. Always keep the negs, they are your heart and soul and artistic creation and .... BULLSHIT!
WORST and most stupid advice I ever got sucked in with in my life! I turned down people whom would have paid good money for the things at the time and made a shipload more money selling them that I ever got in reprint sales.

I woke up later in the game, started selling them and got rubbished for it but that was the smarter thing I did. sort of. I sent out letters when I did wake up offering the negs but out of probably 100 clients I got about 8 that got the negs and at a fraction of what I could have got for them at the time. The rest I had to PAY to take to the dump.

Yeah, real freaking bright Idea that was.
My question to you then is WHY do you not want to sell the images and what are you afraid of in doing that?

Is it because you are scared of loosing reprint sales?
If so, after the initial sale, how many people ever come back to you, especially for something like Christmas Pics? If there was any real demand for the old pics, they wouldn't come back to have new ones taken!
Forget the mentality, look at the practicality.
It's near mission impossible to get people to pay for pics at all now, the odds of them coming back for reprints is a bit behind winning Sunday nights Lotto and they don't even have it here on Sunday night!

Is it simply you don't know how to charge for them?

I have always shared the images for Christmas cards through my printed. Should I reevaluate what I am doing and let the images go or keep the "no image" thing going.


Yeah , well, we used film once but we move on and so do our attitudes and business practices need to adapt to the wants and desires of our clients. Not always what we want but it IS what we have to do.
I'll tell you this much, if you don't reevaluate and change your outlook, nothing else you will do will matter, You'll go down the gurgler faster than
...Show more



Nov 23, 2016 at 06:43 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · They All Want CD's


In the non-photographic world their are multiple business models that range from Flat Fee to T&E (Time & Expense) as a couple of standard models, but really the business model can be whatever the mind can construct and what the buyer & seller can agree to.

My take on your question is not to look at it as an absolute "Do I" vs. "Don't I" ... but rather, take the perspective that folks are looking not so much for a different product (per se), but rather as a different business model option.

Even something as simple as eating can be offered in multiple scenarios ... Happy Meal to A La Carte to Buffet to All-inclusive to

The point here is that if you decide to provide a product / service to a different market segment, then you may need to devise a construct for a business model that makes BUSINESS sense to YOU.

In the old days, I'd shoot weddings as a package, that included an album of 25-30 prints (8x10), and gave them the negs (I didn't want the responsibility) included. OTOH, for portrait sessions, I had a sitting fee that included 1 8x10, and a price list for A La Carte. The key point here was that my pricing structure for each had to be sufficient that I was comfortable with regard to each for my time, effort, energy, etc. ... WITHOUT the prospect of the proverbial upsell or resell.

I told a wedding photographer once that I didn't like doing weddings anymore. He told me to price them high enough that I would either A) like doing them for that money, or B) folks wouldn't want to pay that price, and then I wouldn't be doing them unless I got what I wanted for the time, effort, energy, etc.

Imo, there is absolutely nothing wrong with providing the CD's version, but it sounds to me like you may not have given proper consideration to how that fits into your primary, secondary and subsequent business models. The salient point is that it is YOUR time, YOUR effort, YOUR energy, YOUR talent that your are providing to others for a fee. How you structure YOUR business model(s) for YOUR business is YOUR call.

Ultimately, you have control over the level of product put on the CD (i.e. RAW vs. JPG, Large vs. Small, Professionally PP'd vs. SOOC, Culled vs. All), and what you charge for the service of the shoot, and the product, etc. I could go on ... with regard to how I might do it ... but, it is YOUR business, so it might be time to consider how you want to construct / reconstruct your (multiple / tiered) business models.

As to the question of should you vs. should you not ... let's just say if you feel it's worth your while for the time, effort, energy, money involved, then go for it. If you don't feel it's worth all that ... then either "Pass" on it or set the price so that it is WORTH IT to you.

I'm not in the "people" game atm, but I'd keep the quality of the file size such that it would make for an okay (i.e. not great) 5x7 (say 100-125 ppi), but would be mush for 8x10 or larger. In that regard, the pricing / product is really targeted to social media sharing, not prints (which I'm guessing is what they want anyway). Then if someone does want the larger print for Aunt Sally, they still are coming back for the requisite Professional PP for the print (guessing most won't).

In my mind, this is akin to the old days of giving / selling folks the proofs. They can freely share them, but they aren't going to be making any wall hangers out of them. And, it puts a couple more $$$ in the bread jar without really taking away from the bread & butter. That is, if you are still looking for some way to reconcile your previous / existing principle / philosophy.

GL HTH




Nov 23, 2016 at 07:54 PM
Daniel Smith
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · They All Want CD's


Shoot FILM. Don't scan, don't digitize.

Go into the darkroom and make prints using your enlarger.




Dec 02, 2016 at 03:17 PM
cwebster
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · They All Want CD's


Daniel Smith wrote:
Shoot FILM. Don't scan, don't digitize.

Go into the darkroom and make prints using your enlarger.



Not a very promising business model in today's world. Few photographers have the time or resources to master color film development and printing. And today's photography market perceives B&W as "artsy"



Dec 02, 2016 at 07:47 PM
glort
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · They All Want CD's


I never developed colour film. Pointless.
Temps were too precise and times too short to be consistent by hand.
Any Mini lab around would put it through their 20K machines for me for $2 a roll.
Given the speed of the process I could wait and take them home if I wanted.

Place I used to mainly use I put them through eh machine myself and half the time they didn't even charge me.

Bought a Colour enlarge and a desktop processor and used to do all my own prints from 5x7 to 20x30 myself. Wasn't hard but a lot of money to be saved doing it.



Dec 04, 2016 at 05:47 AM
chez
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · They All Want CD's


cwebster wrote:
Not a very promising business model in today's world. Few photographers have the time or resources to master color film development and printing. And today's photography market perceives B&W as "artsy"


I think Daniel's reply was tounge and cheek in today's digital world...it's quite obvious to me clients want their photos as images rather than just prints.



Dec 04, 2016 at 01:21 PM
cwebster
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · They All Want CD's


chez wrote:
I think Daniel's reply was tounge and cheek in today's digital world...it's quite obvious to me clients want their photos as images rather than just prints.


Sorry, I didn't see a "sarcasm" emoticon, and took it as written in a thread about "old-school" business practices

;-)





Dec 04, 2016 at 05:38 PM
 

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markedman
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · They All Want CD's


Glort is correct as usual. Calculate your costs plus a VERY healthy profit you can live with . SELL THEM A CD AND MOVE ON!!!


Feb 22, 2017 at 03:48 PM
JohnBrose
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · They All Want CD's


I still deal predominately with prints. I tell my clients I want to be sure they are getting a quality finished product. I want people to have a quality finished product and serve my client instead of just making a quick buck. I know i'm in the minority now days, but this is my way of doing business.


Feb 22, 2017 at 03:55 PM
markedman
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · They All Want CD's


That's fine. But consider taking it a step further. I include several prints ( added value) to my CD package. Two reasons. It sets a quality standard plus It allows me to charge more.
In 16+ years I have NEVER had a request for additional prints. All I have is archived photos that will never see the light of day. So why not "strike while the iron is hot" and make your money now. To each his own.



Feb 22, 2017 at 05:24 PM
chez
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · They All Want CD's


markedman wrote:
That's fine. But consider taking it a step further. I include several prints ( added value) to my CD package. Two reasons. It sets a quality standard plus It allows me to charge more.
In 16+ years I have NEVER had a request for additional prints. All I have is archived photos that will never see the light of day. So why not "strike while the iron is hot" and make your money now. To each his own.


Right to each their own. Sometimes not running with the herd and finding your own niche is very prosperous. I know a photographer that still shoots medium format film weddings and he delivers prints and is booked for years out. He advertises his film approach and that he is different and there are enough people out there that want something different for their special day...keeps him very busy and he charges for this "special" process.



Feb 22, 2017 at 05:43 PM
glort
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · They All Want CD's


markedman wrote:
That's fine. But consider taking it a step further. I include several prints ( added value) to my CD package. Two reasons. It sets a quality standard plus It allows me to charge more.


I did this back in the dim dark days before electricity and when I was shooting film. Ironically, was only talking about this to the Mrs last night over dinner along with another discussion here.

I was getting a lot of people approaching me for Low cost coverages when I was well and trully at the upper end of the pricing scale. A mate approached me and rather than being a cheap arse, it was his 2nd wedding and with the gaggle of kids he and the mrs to be had and other things, they couldn't afford a lot.

Ok, I'll shoot the pics, give you the film and you do the rest so I don't have to invest my time which was in real short supply then...even for sleeping.
We do that and he comes back to me a bit distressed that all the pics looks shit. And the did. Take one look at the negs which I told him not to have cut which he didn't and see the problem.
I say no worries, I'll fix it. Send them to my lab who prints them properly, hand them back and he looks like he won the lottery.

I did a LOT more of those jobs as I usually had one of my shooters to them ( good training) and could still make a quid from them but after that we ALWAYS provided a set of prints.
That way when they took them elsewhere and they did a crap job, the client always recognised THEY did a crap job, not us.

I heard back about this... " We took the pictures somewhere and they came back rubbish so we took in some of the prints you gave us to show them how we wanted them". Only reflection on me was positive.

And I still do the same thing today. Weddings and particular Glam shoots I put on Disk or USB Always go with a print or 5. Usually prints I do myself on my own printers I use for T&I and other work that show the pics off to their full quality. This establishes the benchmark for what anything else they may get should look like and eliminated any possibility of anyone thinking I did a poor job.
After all, they can only judge on the reproduction they see not the images potential..



In 16+ years I have NEVER had a request for additional prints. All I have is archived photos that will never see the light of day. So why not "strike while the iron is hot" and make your money now. To each his own.

Couldn't agree more.
I got stuff all reorders back in the film days. Can't remember the last time I got a reprint request unless it was from Family. Got them well trained in the value of Prints and some of the family's homes look like my personal are gallery with all the pics I have taken.

Many products and markets work on the impulse buy or at least while the buyer is in the spending mood. I'm very much like that myself. I either can't be bothered buying what I need or I'm buying stuff I don't just for the hell of it. I did Sports events work and getting the sale then in their with that is the absoloute make or break. I tried doing online and it was a spectacular failure. They either bought then and there or they never did. and I mean never. Not one online sale did I ever make.

With the rapid production of Pictures and our lives, the value of images I think moves quick. Again from personal experience, I can look back at family things over the last 3 months and got from a couple of birthdays, a home coming, Christmas, another 2 birthday's, a farewell again gathering and in the next couple of weeks a 21st. Each event seems to make the last a little less important as we want the more "Up to date" pics.

I think it's the same for clients and magnified by the fact to go back to what we have done, there are going to have to pay for them.

More important to meet the Clients demands with a good product that satisfy our own wants and preferences.




Feb 22, 2017 at 11:05 PM
DaveSPictures
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · They All Want CD's


I have no problem selling full resolution digital files. Just make sure that paperwork is drawn up and agreed that NO RESALE is allowed. Just imagine someone else making more money than you did by reselling to a business or advertising firm. Your clients need to understand and agree to their fair use and limited rights for what they get when they make a purchase.


Mar 15, 2017 at 08:27 PM
Hammy
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · They All Want CD's


DaveSPictures wrote:
I have no problem selling full resolution digital files. Just make sure that paperwork is drawn up and agreed that NO RESALE is allowed. Just imagine someone else making more money than you did by reselling to a business or advertising firm. Your clients need to understand and agree to their fair use and limited rights for what they get when they make a purchase.


How do you 'restrict' that?

More over, if you sell them an 8x10, they take a picture of that, then sell their own digital image, how is it any different?

Ever notice that no camera manufacturer puts disclaimers that you can't make money with their gear - or ask for commission. They are in the business of selling cameras - not what happens after that.

Photographers are in the business of selling photos/images. Stop worrying about what happens after that - YOU CAN'T CONTROL IT. Go sell more pix.




Mar 15, 2017 at 09:27 PM
DaveSPictures
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · They All Want CD's


Hammy wrote:
How do you 'restrict' that?

More over, if you sell them an 8x10, they take a picture of that, then sell their own digital image, how is it any different?

Ever notice that no camera manufacturer puts disclaimers that you can't make money with their gear - or ask for commission. They are in the business of selling cameras - not what happens after that.

Photographers are in the business of selling photos/images. Stop worrying about what happens after that - YOU CAN'T CONTROL IT. Go sell more pix.



I suggest you read up on copyright laws. A guitar manufacturer has no claim to the music put out by Led Zepplin. You restrict that by having them agree to limited rights, not copyright ownership. The photographer retains ownership unless it is specifically sold away. Let's say I take a picture of your child and her friends. I sell or give it to you, the parent. You can not sell it to the manufacturer of girl scout cookies for printing on the box of thin mints and all advertising and marketing materials for GS cookies and you make $10,000 off of my work. You also can not enter it into a contest and win a prize. It is not your work as the parent and I the photographer did not allow you to do anything with it other than enjoy it for personal use.




Mar 16, 2017 at 04:00 AM
Hammy
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · They All Want CD's




DaveSPictures wrote:
I suggest you read up on copyright laws. A guitar manufacturer has no claim to the music put out by Led Zepplin. You restrict that by having them agree to limited rights, not copyright ownership. The photographer retains ownership unless it is specifically sold away. Let's say I take a picture of your child and her friends. I sell or give it to you, the parent. You can not sell it to the manufacturer of girl scout cookies for printing on the box of thin mints and all advertising and marketing materials for GS cookies and you make $10,000 off
...Show more

No argument on laws. They are there for reasons. There also broken ALL THE TIME.

Have your disclaimer, as we do, but I don't even THINK about pix after they're delivered to a customer. That's just too much to worry about.
I'm not going to monitor every publication, post, whatever...looking for a fight.

Maybe it's because we sell and give away photos to over 100,000 customers per year, I don't have the time, effort or expense to worry about what people do with our images.



Mar 16, 2017 at 06:32 PM
dachshund
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · They All Want CD's


I have a question for folks who sell digital files but limit the size to 5x7 prints and smaller. Have any clients complained about the small size? I may be trying to stretch the logic here, but if they go ahead and print 8x10s and aren't happy, do you hear back from them?


May 17, 2017 at 04:19 PM
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