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Archive 2016 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???

  
 
Bruce n Philly
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???


I own Canon 5DSr, 500mm f/4 IS (previous version), and 1.4x II. I am considering buying the new 1DX Mk II. I LOVE the 5DSr and am very happy with this setup. However, shooting birds from a distance and in flight.... well.......

Questions:

1 - Other that frame rate, what will I get (and lose) with the 1DX Mk II over my 5DSr?
2 - How many more ISO stops will I get with the 1DX Mk II for equal noise over the 5DSr?

Ok, now the biggie.....

3 - Will I get better image quality using the 1.4x II with deep crops on the 1DX Mk II over my 5DSr?

Bonus question:

4 - What is the minimum shutter speed for acceptable keeper rate using 700mm? I find I have to be above 2000.....

Regarding 3 above... some background so maybe you can set me straight.... the really big thing I like about the 5DSr is the ability to crop deeply and get amazing detail (assuming I get everything else right) so I get more "reach" for distant birds. However, it all goes to crap when I use the 1.4x as deep crops start to reveal noise and the fuzzing of the 1.4x. I learned that stopping down my aperture a full stop or 1.3 stop from wide open using the 1.4x improves sharpness to acceptable levels but now, I am 2 stops in the hole shooting birds in flight and then need to compensate by upping ISO... which then give me noise at deep crops.

Regarding the noise, every year I shoot those eagles down at Conowingo and the eagles when in the sun have huge contrast from their white heads/tails and and their super dark under-wing... BIG contrast.... so in LightRoom, I lighten the under wing and with a deep crop, out comes the noise! (BTW, I found that popping out and using DXO 10-11 Prime is way better for noise reduction here). I try to shoot no more than 500 ISO... sometimes to 800 but that is it with this lens/camera combo.

Regarding frame rate.... everyone wants more but honestly, in my hierarchy of desires, frame rate is not at the top..... ISO performance at deep crops is.

What will I gain and or lose by moving to the 1DX mk II over my 5DSr?

Thanx so much for your help... big dollar decision here...

Peace
Bruce in Philly



Nov 19, 2016 at 08:54 AM
Paul Tessier
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???


Iso performance 1DxII. Deep crop 5Ds. Comprises have to be made these days. I use a 5Ds and enjoy it but I can easily see the merits of the 1Dx.


Nov 19, 2016 at 10:32 AM
hnilsson
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???


Wondering why you didn't include the 5D IV in your decision making. I have it and the 1Dx II - each certainly has it's own merits but if frame rate isn't paramount, then the 5D IV would be a good alternative IMO.


Nov 19, 2016 at 11:23 AM
Scrumhalf
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???


I'm watching this thread. I'm grappling with a similar decision (started a thread about it a few days ago). I've gone round and round about 5DsR vs a 5D4 vs a 1Dx2. I agree with Henrik that there's no perfect answer unfortunately. Every one has its advantage and its disadvantage.


Nov 19, 2016 at 11:46 AM
arbitrage
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???


I have both.....

To try to answer your questions....
1) You will get higher ISO performance, you will get a much better AF system (IMHO), you will get a more robust body. You will get a much more responsive camera.
You will lose MPs.

2) This is a tough one....it depends if you are cropping a lot. If you don't crop either image then I'd say you gain probably 1.5 stops once you get up around 1600 ISO. If you crop a 5DSR I find ISO gets worse and worse. However it is very subjective and depends on the light levels more than the ISO selected (as is always the case)
I think I'm comfortable shooting the 5DSR up to 3200 without cropping and the 1DX2 up to 10,000. The high ISO holds up better cropping a 1DX2 over a 5DSR again in my subjective opinion.

3) This one is tough to say.....I think you will especially at higher ISOs. At lower ISOs like 800 and under the 5DSR will be better.

4) I comfortably shoot at 1/1000 handheld for eagles in flight and get sharp images up to 840mm. Easier with the 400DOII at 800mm than my 600II at 840mm. On tripod but not locked down I shoot at 1/160 at 840mm no problem....can get away with lower still if you shoot a burst you will get a few sharp ones. I can handhold the 600/1.4 for perched shots at about 1/250 with a decent keeper rate. I'm only in my 30s and fit so that might help.

But maybe the best is to rent the 1DX2 because everything anyone tells you on here will be so subjective (including my opinions). Or maybe there will be a nice FM member at Conowingo to let you use there 1DX2 for a short while to get some images on your own memory card to evaluate at home.






Handheld






ISO 12800



Edited on Nov 19, 2016 at 11:59 AM · View previous versions



Nov 19, 2016 at 11:51 AM
coreyhkh
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???



Hi Bruce

1 - I would say maybe 2 stops and improved DR

2 - hard to say it really depends on a lot of factors, the 5dsr will always have more detail just because of the fact it has way ore pixels and no AA filter

3 - the 1.4 will have a less of a hit on image quality on the 1dx but standing in the same spot using the same lens and shooting the same subject the 5dsr will give a far more detailed picture.



Nov 19, 2016 at 11:56 AM
ggreene
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???


Given your criteria of shooting perhaps a 7D2 would be something to try. It's going to give you the pixel density you want, its IQ under 800 ISO is quite good, and it ups the FPS to 10. It does have a polarizing reputation with regards to AF but you can always return the body if it doesn't meet your needs.

Sadly, Canon has no D500 or A99II right now in their arsenal.



Nov 19, 2016 at 12:24 PM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???


The 7D2 is certainly a viable option to the over-priced ( IMO ) 1DX2 and 5D4.

And it has no problem with ISO 1600. Remember if the FF is requiring you to use a TC, you are losing 1 f-stop, which means you have to double your ISO.



Nov 19, 2016 at 01:22 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???


Cropped 5Ds benefit over 7D2 is you get more perimeter sight which can be good for BIF, especially at very long FL's. 7D2 has double fps and far less LCD blackout time, larger buffer. If you spray BIFs then 7D2. Short burst or single 5Ds can be very nice, but 2.5 times the price.

What else do you shoot?



Nov 19, 2016 at 01:37 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???


I couldn't decide what to do so weakened and did what I didn't expect, I bought the 5D4. Based on what I've seen as far as IQ, noise, DR, the 5D4 loses nothing to 1DXII and since for birding I'm often FL limited the 30MP swayed me over the 14fps. I have the 1DX still for speed and I will post my impressions of 5D4 vs 1DX for biriding/action/surfing ASAP.

The 5DsR will do a lot better if heavy cropping is needed. Don't forget compared to the 1DXII it puts 2.5x as many pixels on the subject so is effectively a 1.6x TC comparted to 1DXII. Thus even with a 1.4x TC the 1DXII is out reached so-to-speak and the need for higher ISO and if cropping, negates a lot of it's benefits. It will shine brightest when you are not FL limited.

I would take a 5D4 over 7D2 any day. Sure it's a lot dearer, but AF is better, IQ unless very FL limited is better. 7D2 is a more specialised tool, 5D4 more of a generalist, but still better in AF and should be a lot more reliable in AF consistency which is far more important to me than "reach".



Nov 19, 2016 at 07:08 PM
Scrumhalf
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???


Looking forward to your review. I'm still sitting on the fence for the 5DsR vs. 5D4 as a second birding camera (to accompany my 7D2).


Nov 19, 2016 at 09:01 PM
arbitrage
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???


Scrumhalf wrote:
Looking forward to your review. I'm still sitting on the fence for the 5DsR vs. 5D4 as a second birding camera (to accompany my 7D2).


If you are pairing with a 7D2 I'd highly recommend the 5D4...even though I haven't used it...but I've used everything else

If you are pairing with a 1DX/1DX2 then it is a much harder decision....like PP, I thought the 5DSR was the right choice but have strongly considered switching to the 5D4 instead....for now I'm staying with the 5DSR as the cost of selling and buying the 5D4 is just too much for me right now....



Nov 19, 2016 at 09:35 PM
Scrumhalf
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???


Thanks, Geoff! That's how I am leaning too at the moment. I can also sell my 6D to offset the cost of the 5D4 a bit, since the latter would render the former superfluous, I would think! The 1DX II is a bit too much expenditure for me, as I am just a casual amateur.


Nov 19, 2016 at 10:24 PM
Bruce n Philly
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???


Thanx all, given your responses.... I am keeping my 5DSr and will now start hunting for a better, longer lens.... a Canon 600 II. Anyone want to sell me one?

Rational: (comment please)

1 - Pixel Perfect shares my suspicion that the high MP count is a 1.6x teleconverter and all without a stop loss (and performance loss).
2 - If I want reach, no stop loss, and get as much detail as possible from this MP marvel, just get better, longer glass.

I don't have the opportunity to shoot falcons, puffins or other higher=speed birds in flight.... so while I would love a higher frame rate, I have done fine with the 5DSrs performance. The focus system is really very very good and shooting eagles with this, coupled with my improving skills, is working out wonderfully. I really can't complain about the 5DSrs focusing system (although a TC slows it down).

Increased dynamic range is something that is very appealing to me but I am making it work with the 5DSr. When shooting an eagle in direct sunlight, you have huge contrasts... you have to get the exposure as far right as you can to not blow out their white heads... but even then, their in-shadow underwings are near black and when lightening in software, evil noise appears. (DXO Prime NR is unbelievable BTW and far suprior to LightRoom).

Regarding deep crops, check what the 5DSr can do..... now that is reach. I am not using a teleconverter... that thing just fuzzes up these deep crops and I believe if I used the TC on this bird and then cropped to the same size, it would have been way worse.. and I would have lost a stop and therefore more noise. I know many get great results with a TC but for me, it is just not good.

Peace
Bruce in Philly

From same photo:

http://www.travelthroughpictures.com/bdd/photostuff/Yellow2.jpg
http://www.travelthroughpictures.com/bdd/photostuff/Yellow1.jpg

Edited on Nov 20, 2016 at 11:27 AM · View previous versions



Nov 20, 2016 at 10:40 AM
arbitrage
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???


And just remember Bruce that the DR improvements are really only at ISO 100-200....a small advantage up to 400 but no improvement over that. I don't know about you but I rarely get to shoot at those ISOs anyways so DR shooting eagles above 400 won't give you any advantage getting a 5D4 over 5DSR. If you are happy with 5FPS in the 5DSR then you are really only looking at high-ISO performance out of a 5D4 or 1DX type of body. I think you will miss your pixels more than what you will gain in the high ISO. If you are usually at 1600 or less than you won't gain much out of the 1DX/2.

However, I do find I can zoom into a 1DX file at 2:1 mag in LR and it holds up similar to at 1:1 mag on a 5DSR or 7D2 file. That seems to say I can make up some of the 1.6x difference with the better pixels on the 1DX file. You can't make it all up but I personally think the reach difference isn't the full 1.6x and the difference decreases as you go beyond 1600 ISO.



Nov 20, 2016 at 10:54 AM
IndyFab
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???


Lets keep in mind OP has version 1 500 and 1.4II, how about if he had the 500 II and the 1.4 III. Would that change the equation


Nov 20, 2016 at 11:22 AM
IndyFab
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???


Scrumhalf wrote:
I'm watching this thread. I'm grappling with a similar decision (started a thread about it a few days ago). I've gone round and round about 5DsR vs a 5D4 vs a 1Dx2. I agree with Henrik that there's no perfect answer unfortunately. Every one has its advantage and its disadvantage.


Sam, I was out shooting with my buddy early this morning,(a pro) and he said, there were whispers about a new version of the 5DSr with 60mp and the new sensor used in the 5DIV & 1DXII . The only thing he wasn't sure of was, if it would have the same frame rate as the 5DIV

If your happy with your 500II and 1.4III as far as reach, then a FF will serve you well. If you hanker for more reach then the 5DSr will come in handy. Look for a good deal on a used one, and sell it when the new version comes out. MHO




Nov 20, 2016 at 11:45 AM
arbitrage
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???


IndyFab wrote:
Sam, I was out shooting with my buddy early this morning,(a pro) and he said, there were whispers about a new version of the 5DSr with 60mp and the new sensor used in the 5DIV & 1DXII . The only thing he wasn't sure of was, if it would have the same frame rate as the 5DIV

If your happy with your 500II and 1.4III as far as reach, then a FF will serve you well. If you hanker for more reach then the 5DSr will come in handy. Look for a good deal on a used one, and sell
...Show more

My guess is the 5DSRII will either up the MPs and keep the 5FPS or at best get up to 6FPS of the 5D3. No way they will hit 7FPS unless they keep it at 50MP but give us the new sensor fab for DR....I think I'd prefer keeping it at 50MP and getting to 7FPS over an extra 10MP which would be meaningless and not improving FPS.

Also hope they can improve the speed of image review and card writing. 2 CFexpress slots should do fine



Nov 20, 2016 at 11:57 AM
Pixel Perfect
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???


I should say owning the 5DsR unless AF is absolutely critical for fast erratic subjects say or 12fps is needed, I reach for fior the 5DsR more than the 1DX. Having so many more pixels for cropping is addictive. You can throw 75% of the pixels and still have 12.5MP, left over compared to 4.5MP left over on 1DX, 5MP on 1DXII. Also I find 5DsR sans TC's has excellent AF. If TC's are needed 1DX does a lot better but it needs them so much more anyway.

One thing I do with 1DX shots sometimes. If they are nice and clean and heavily cropped I use a little uprezzing in PS. Maybe 20% max and I can't really see any IQ difference, but helps out a bit.



Nov 21, 2016 at 12:16 AM
Eyvind Ness
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · 5DS vs 1DX Mk II - Birds ???


What Whayne wrote. I also own the 5dsr and 1dx2, I prefer the former is most situations involving birds as the cropping power and sheer IQ cannot be matched, unless you find yourself in quite specific situations, typically involving fierce action or low light, or when you are able to fill the frame anyway. I rented the 5D4 for a week, and tested it for bird action (see the 5D4 images thread), but in the end I found it too close to my 5dsr and i wasn't gonna let that one go, so I ended up with the 1dx2 instead, for a real complement to my 5dsr.



Nov 21, 2016 at 01:41 AM
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