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Archive 2016 · Opinions Sony FE 35 1.4 vs. CV 35 1.2 II Please

  
 
Steve Spencer
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · Opinions Sony FE 35 1.4 vs. CV 35 1.2 II Please


uhoh7 wrote:
Oh, they are both thinner, want to bet?


Do you know or are you just speculating? If you know more measurements, it would be great if you would share them.



Nov 18, 2016 at 01:14 AM
RCicala
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · Opinions Sony FE 35 1.4 vs. CV 35 1.2 II Please


I've got some nondisclosure things that I have to work around in this response, so forgive me for not being specific.

First, Ilya takes apart sensor stacks way more than I, so I'll generally defer to him on actual thickness. But remember measured thickness and optical thickness can be different. For example, a stack 1.9mm thick when you measure it may have some special plates and may actually refract light like a 2.4mm stack of more common BK7 glass.

Small differences, say 2mm to 2.5mm will not make a measurable difference on most lenses. But then one day you'll find that there's a certain lens, almost always a wide aperture prime, that it makes a very large difference on. I've been burned this way during my learning curve and had to redo test results a couple of times. In one case a lens designer told me that I needed a 2.2mm stack and my 2.0mm stack would be inaccurate. And he was correct. He also told me that he knew of no other lens that would be so affected.

My only point is we shouldn't generalize. So saying "I tested the Jumongus 35 f/1.4 and it worked great, so the Marvelous 85 f/1.4 should work well too" is an inaccurate generalization.

In general, most Leica cameras have very thin stacks (1.1 -1.5mm), Canikon cameras had stacks just under or right around 2mm, some Nikon and most Sony a bit over 2mm, and most m4/3 around 4mm. But Ilya would have much more specific information on that than I.



Nov 18, 2016 at 06:51 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · Opinions Sony FE 35 1.4 vs. CV 35 1.2 II Please


RCicala wrote:
I've got some nondisclosure things that I have to work around in this response, so forgive me for not being specific.

First, Ilya takes apart sensor stacks way more than I, so I'll generally defer to him on actual thickness. But remember measured thickness and optical thickness can be different. For example, a stack 1.9mm thick when you measure it may have some special plates and may actually refract light like a 2.4mm stack of more common BK7 glass.

Small differences, say 2mm to 2.5mm will not make a measurable difference on most lenses. But then one day you'll find
...Show more

Thanks Roger that is very helpful. It is good to know that some lenses can need a very specific sensor stack (i.e., cover glass thickness) to work well. You have noted elsewhere and it is good to be reminded that even if you know the physical thickness of the cover glass that may not be enough as we have to know the way it refracts light. I think this all just reinforces the practical point I have tried to emphasize, on which we can all agree. You need to know how the lenses you want to use will work on your specific camera. Fortunately, there is a lot of information on that, with samples, here on FM, but certainly there are lots of lenses that aren't tested as well.



Nov 18, 2016 at 08:14 AM
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · Opinions Sony FE 35 1.4 vs. CV 35 1.2 II Please


You know there is another option, right?
SLR Magic 35mm f1.2 CINE FE... $499, FE mount, small.



Nov 22, 2016 at 10:19 AM
uhoh7
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · Opinions Sony FE 35 1.4 vs. CV 35 1.2 II Please


Steve Spencer wrote:
Do you know or are you just speculating? If you know more measurements, it would be great if you would share them.


You know who to email. He is very nice. You really think they are going to put thicker glass on the big low light monsters when many of it's buyers have all sorts of glass?

As to the "effective" thickness I went into that also. Did not bring Sony any closer to the mainstream. Compared to M43 of course even Sony is thin. That point is moot.


Kolari Chiaroscuro by unoh7, on Flickr

Thanks to Kolari my 2013 A7 is used all the time. Great support from them also. Now that Philip has sold his, this might be the oldest one still in daily use by one of the original Nex gang

If I was a bit more flush I would mod an r2. Without the mod, much as I admire the sensor, I can't use it. If any one is considering one on any A7, I would suggest v2. I did not get on with v3 which has something in the glass to help with reflections I don't see, and that lens did not care for. They swapped it out, no problem. The 21/4 shot on page 2 is testimony to it's performance. This is one tiny RF lens, still can't work like film, but seems equal to what the M9 can do with it.


Sony A7.mod by unoh7, on Flickr

I also had them do a v2 A7S, for a client, which I shot a thousand frames or so on. I would love one of those. BTW as I noted elsewhere, kudos to Sony for QC improvement and great performance with 24-70/2.8 and 50/1.4


Edited on Nov 22, 2016 at 06:55 PM · View previous versions



Nov 22, 2016 at 06:30 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · Opinions Sony FE 35 1.4 vs. CV 35 1.2 II Please


So, Charlie did Ilya tell you the thickness of the sensor stack (i.e., cover glass) of any other camera? I don't understand whether you are being coy or not. If you know and you can tell us that would be great. If you don't know I wish you would tell us that and if you know but can't tell us I wish you would tell us that and maybe why you can't tell us. At this point it is hard to know whether you know anything or not, and I generally think more knowledge is a good thing. So, would you tell us what you know and what you are just speculating about?


Nov 22, 2016 at 06:55 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · Opinions Sony FE 35 1.4 vs. CV 35 1.2 II Please


Oh, and I do think they would put thicker glass in their professional cameras if modern lenses are designed for thicker glass. It would be to their advantage if their new lenses worked better with their new cameras than their old lenses. And cover glass works both ways. If a lens is designed for thicker glass it will work less well on thinner glass. Thicker glass with lenses designed for it would be a easy way to make sure that on their best cameras their new lenses worked better than their old lenses encouraging people to upgrade.


Nov 22, 2016 at 06:59 PM
uhoh7
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · Opinions Sony FE 35 1.4 vs. CV 35 1.2 II Please


Steve Spencer wrote:
So, Charlie did Ilya tell you the thickness of the sensor stack (i.e., cover glass) of any other camera? I don't understand whether you are being coy or not. If you know and you can tell us that would be great. If you don't know I wish you would tell us that and if you know but can't tell us I wish you would tell us that and maybe why you can't tell us. At this point it is hard to know whether you know anything or not, and I generally think more knowledge is a good thing. So,
...Show more

You are the one who has been doing the speculating. Why not just do the research? Then you too can enjoy when somebody marches in and says you are wrong based on an old webpage.

But I will bet you a six-pack of good beer they are as thin or thinner than D810/ 5D m4. Paypal to winner to fund, 20 bucks max, OK?



Nov 22, 2016 at 06:59 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · Opinions Sony FE 35 1.4 vs. CV 35 1.2 II Please


uhoh7 wrote:
You are the one who has been doing the speculating. Why not just do the research? Then you too can enjoy when somebody marches in and says you are wrong based on an old webpage.


Come on Charlie. That is BS, if you have done the research share it please. If you won't share it, then I think you could at least tell us why, and tell us what research you have done and haven't done. I like to think this is a cooperative place, but If you want to look down on others rather than share what you know, then I think that is pretty crappy, but no one said you had to be helpful to others. I certainly did speculate, but I was always clear where I was speculating and where I was drawing upon know information. You seem to be purposely cryptic, which is totally unhelpful, but again nobody said you have to be helpful even if that is the typical way around here.



Nov 22, 2016 at 07:07 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · Opinions Sony FE 35 1.4 vs. CV 35 1.2 II Please


uhoh7 wrote:
You are the one who has been doing the speculating. Why not just do the research? Then you too can enjoy when somebody marches in and says you are wrong based on an old webpage.

But I will bet you a six-pack of good beer they are as thin or thinner than D810/ 5D m4. Paypal to winner to fund, 20 bucks max, OK?


Oh, and as for the bet that sucks too. If you know the answer, then you are essentially saying I have to pay you $20 bucks to get the answer. If you don't know, then you should own up to that and maybe I will take the bet, but you should admit that all your bravado was just that talking about things that you have not researched. Oh, and why I don't ask Ilya myself (i.e., do my own research) is because I don't think that is fair to him. I haven't had him modify a camera and I have no plans to do so. He is a busy guy who is running a business and I don't think it is fair for me to ask a guy that busy to supply me information. If he came on here and wanted to share it that would be great, but I am not going to ask someone at their business email to provide me information when I have no intention of doing business with him. I think it is fair, however, to ask someone who regularly comes to this forum to share the information they know and make it clear what they know and what they don't know. I will ask you again to do that. I hope this time you can help us all out by letting us know what you know and don't know.



Nov 22, 2016 at 07:28 PM
uhoh7
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · Opinions Sony FE 35 1.4 vs. CV 35 1.2 II Please


Steve Spencer wrote:
Come on Charlie. That is BS, if you have done the research share it please. If you won't share it, then I think you could at least tell us why, and tell us what research you have done and haven't done. I like to think this is a cooperative place, but If you want to look down on others rather than share what you know, then I think that is pretty crappy, but no one said you had to be helpful to others. I certainly did speculate, but I was always clear where I was speculating and where I
...Show more

Thanks for the lecture. I guess you won't back up your claim Sony is well within norms for effective or real coverglass thickness on FF DSLRs in wide use by pros today, or just admit you do not have the slightest clue what is the case, and concede that I may well have a serious point here.

Which is this: Roger has shown, and I now realize, the GM 24-70 is world class in performance and build. Fantastic. But useless for me, because it NEEDs the thick cover to hit those highs. It's designed for it. Had they just taken the normal route, which they as sensor suppliers know well, put a nice thin cover on there, then I could pull that 24-70 (now designed for the thin cover) off the r2 and plop a 28 cron right on. Best of both worlds and totally feasible, not to mention a gateway to the free marketing they got on the Nex for it's use of all the old classic lenses for all sorts of mounts. As profitable as the FF Nex, which I predicted to the laughter of many here, aka A7x, has been for Sony, they would be way ahead in the long run, and true to the original marketing as well with a cover like you will find on those big DSLRs.

Now they are stuck, and so are we. It's either or, when both would have been no problem at all.

Sure it's their choice. But when asked about the few lenses they had to start, what was their answer?




Nov 22, 2016 at 07:46 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · Opinions Sony FE 35 1.4 vs. CV 35 1.2 II Please


uhoh7 wrote:
Thanks for the lecture. I guess you won't back up your claim Sony is well within norms for effective or real coverglass thickness on FF DSLRs in wide use by pros today, or just admit you do not have the slightest clue what is the case, and concede that I may well have a serious point here.

Which is this: Roger has shown, and I now realize, the GM 24-70 is world class in performance and build. Fantastic. But useless for me, because it NEEDs the thick cover to hit those highs. It's designed for it. Had they just taken the
...Show more

Charlie I have no more information than I have shared. Do you? I am glad to admit that I don't know anything more than I have already said. My claim is based on the information I have presented and statements like Roger's above that Canon and Nikon have about a 2mm thick glass. Now you said that Roger is wrong and you are right because you talked to Ilja, and the Nikon D810 and 5D MK IV have 1.2mm cover glass. I find that interesting but not definitive. I would like to know the thickness on the most recent professional cameras. You won't say whether you know that or not. You imply you do, but if you do you want to have a bet to charge me for what you know. If you don't know then you could at least own up to that. I fully concede you may have a point, but if you won't tell us what you know it is only "may" have a point because based on what you have revealed so far to me anyway it is interesting but not convincing.
So please don't be coy and let us know if Ilja has told you anything more than you have shared. If not, then I do find your argument interesting but not convincing. If he has I am ready to be convinced by more data, but I'm not going to pay for it.



Nov 22, 2016 at 08:02 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · Opinions Sony FE 35 1.4 vs. CV 35 1.2 II Please


uhoh7 wrote:
Thanks for the lecture. I guess you won't back up your claim Sony is well within norms for effective or real coverglass thickness on FF DSLRs in wide use by pros today, or just admit you do not have the slightest clue what is the case, and concede that I may well have a serious point here.

Which is this: Roger has shown, and I now realize, the GM 24-70 is world class in performance and build. Fantastic. But useless for me, because it NEEDs the thick cover to hit those highs. It's designed for it. Had they just taken the
...Show more

A couple of problems with that argument, Charlie, that I will just point out. It is true that Sony could have picked a thinner cover glass, but could you have just plopped on a 28 cron ASPH and gotten optimal results? Actually the answer is no, not until earlier this year when the 28 cron ASPH was redesigned for digital. It didn't perform optimally even on the Leica M camera and that's why Leica redesigned it. Second, you really should realize that the market for people who want to use Leica M lenses on the Sony cameras like you and me is minuscule compared to the people who want to use AF lenses. That is just the market. Why should we expect Sony to cater to a tiny minority like us? Third, Sony also presumably knew that this tiny minority would be catered to by Zeiss and their Loxia lenses. So would I have liked Sony to build their cameras with a thinner sensor? Yes, but they didn't and I think it is time to get over that and just try to figure out what lenses work and what lenses don't. I think I have a great set that works well and although we can't use everything we can still use a good number of lenses and it is still a great option. Could it have been better? Sure, but that is water long under the bridge.



Nov 23, 2016 at 08:09 AM
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