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Archive 2016 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO
  
 
DavidBM
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO


As most of us know, the Milvus line, with the exception of the 50, 85 and new 18, is supposed to be a rehousing of the ZE/ZF line with improved coatings.

But looking at tests on DXO (and I mean the drilled down details, not the admittedly useless headline numbers) they are performing rather better on the same bodies.

The Milvus 2/50 macro for instance does usefully better than the macro planr 2/50
http://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Compare/Side-by-side/Zeiss-Carl-Zeiss-Milvus-F2-50mm-M-ZF2-Nikon-on-Nikon-D800E-versus-Carl-Zeiss-Makro-Planar-T-50mm-f-2-ZE-Canon-on-Canon-EOS-5DS-R-versus-Carl-Zeiss-Macro-Planar-2-50mm-ZF2-Nikon__1601_814_328_1009_339_0

And the performance difference between the makro planar 2/100 and the Milvus version is much larger still.

So if the tests aren't sloppy either the coating change makes more difference than it ought, they have improved production and there's less slop with the new ones, they have actually tweaked the optics a bit, or it's random sample variation and a fluke that it was both Milvus lenses that were better.

In any case I had thought to pick up some classic Z series lenses which sell for less than Milvus, but now I think maybe get the Milvus version....



Oct 26, 2016 at 09:53 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO


That's interesting. The Zeiss MFT diagrams are virtually identical for the ZE and Milvus lenses you mentioned. For example, here's a comparison of the 100/2, with the ZE on the left and Milvus right, with f/2 in the top row and f/4 bottom.





Zeiss MTF Charts: 100mm f/2, Classic ZE (left) and Milvus (right)




Oct 26, 2016 at 11:11 PM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO


dxo-voodoo again?


Oct 26, 2016 at 11:16 PM
Maximilian
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO


It's a kind of magic.


Oct 26, 2016 at 11:30 PM
freaklikeme
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO


Change in the coatings? It made a huge difference in Sony's a-mount zooms.


Oct 27, 2016 at 12:06 AM
jcolwell
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO


freaklikeme wrote:
Change in the coatings? It made a huge difference in Sony's a-mount zooms.


If a change in coatings changed the resolution and/or contrast, it should show in the Zeiss MTF diagrams.



Oct 27, 2016 at 12:08 AM
freaklikeme
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO


jcolwell wrote:
If a change in coatings changed the resolution and/or contrast, it should show in the Zeiss MTF diagrams.


I would agree if the method of testing were consistent between Zeiss and DxO, or if it's shown that coatings would effect optical bench testing in the same manner in which they effect lens + camera testing.



Oct 27, 2016 at 12:14 AM
arduluth
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO


The link DavidBM posted compares the ZF.2 on the Nikon D800E and the Milvus on the Canon 5DSR. The 36 MP D800E wouldn't match the 50 MP 5DSR in resolution, even if they had both used the ZF.2 or Milvus. This really shouldn't come as a surprise.


Oct 27, 2016 at 12:21 AM
Fred Miranda
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO


arduluth wrote:
The link DavidBM posted compares the ZF.2 on the Nikon D800E and the Milvus on the Canon 5DSR. The 36 MP D800E wouldn't match the 50 MP 5DSR in resolution, even if they had both used the ZF.2 or Milvus. This really shouldn't come as a surprise.


It had the Canon there as well but ignoring that and only paying attention to the D800E tests, you will be able to see the difference in the test results which do not agree with Zeiss's own MTF graphs.








Oct 27, 2016 at 12:49 AM
arduluth
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO




Fred Miranda wrote:
It had the Canon there as well but ignoring that and only paying attention to the D800E tests, you will be able to see the difference in the test results which do not agree with Zeiss's own MTF graphs.


Thanks Fred!

Hrmm, that's strange indeed. I'm not on a computer at the moment so it's a pain, but has anyone compared the sharpness field display? Large differences there would be more indicative of real changes than the IMHO near worthless single number and P-MPix scores.

The difference in the P-MPix seems like it could be within sample variation. Perhaps Zeiss has been taking DXO more seriously and sent them hand picked copies. Or maybe the Milvii really are better, but Zeiss would want to take credit for such an improvement, especially with the price hike, which makes me doubt any real improvements in the specific designs were talking about.



Oct 27, 2016 at 01:13 AM
 

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DavidBM
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO


arduluth wrote:
The link DavidBM posted compares the ZF.2 on the Nikon D800E and the Milvus on the Canon 5DSR. The 36 MP D800E wouldn't match the 50 MP 5DSR in resolution, even if they had both used the ZF.2 or Milvus. This really shouldn't come as a surprise.


The link had the comparison in the D800e and there is a difference. There is an even bigger difference with the 100 mp. My link had the canon too, but ignore that of course...



Oct 27, 2016 at 01:54 AM
DavidBM
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO


Here's the big difference; 100mp vs Milvus on d800e

http://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Compare/Side-by-side/Zeiss-Carl-Zeiss-Milvus-F2-100mm-M-ZF2-Nikon-on-Nikon-D800E-versus-Carl-Zeiss-Macro-Planar-2-100mm-ZF2-Nikon-on-Nikon-D800E__1603_814_340_814

Either massive DXO error, or else there could be improvements in manufacture which make the Milvus perform closer to spec (where the Zeiss MTF is measured from an in spec copy)



Oct 27, 2016 at 02:00 AM
Lee Saxon
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO


There's nothing to this (or DXO lens tests in general). It's just sample variation. They got a weak copy of the classic. I'm all for hearing about look and handling and bokeh from a source that only tests one copy of the lens, but that's not acceptable for a source purporting to present objective scientific measurements.


Oct 27, 2016 at 03:02 AM
DavidBM
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO


Lee Saxon wrote:
There's nothing to this (or DXO lens tests in general). It's just sample variation. They got a weak copy of the classic. I'm all for hearing about look and handling and bokeh from a source that only tests one copy of the lens, but that's not acceptable for a source purporting to present objective scientific measurements.


That's certainly the leading hypothesis, even though in the case of the 100 it's a big variation.
But I wouldn't exclude the possibility that the heavier tougher Milvus housing has been manufactured in a way that means that more samples are close to optimal. So far we have only two pairs of tests, but if more come in with the Milvus ahead I'll start to think that might be what's going on. Of course this is just a specific version of the sample variation explanation.



Oct 27, 2016 at 03:28 AM
jcolwell
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO


freaklikeme wrote:
Change in the coatings? It made a huge difference in Sony's a-mount zooms.

jcolwell wrote:
If a change in coatings changed the resolution and/or contrast, it should show in the Zeiss MTF diagrams.

freaklikeme wrote:
I would agree if the method of testing were consistent between Zeiss and DxO, or if it's shown that coatings would effect optical bench testing in the same manner in which they effect lens + camera testing.


I'm good with using Zeiss MTF tests to make my decisions regarding MTF characteristics, when I'm thinking about buying Zeiss lenses. Until and unless somebody shows a problem with the Zeiss MTF methodology, I'm content to use it as the MTF baseline. Other test providers that provide conflicting data are simply part of the input, at a lower level of perceived reliability (for me), than the OEM. Happens all the time, and not only with Zeiss.



Oct 27, 2016 at 12:21 PM
freaklikeme
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO


jcolwell wrote:
I'm good with using Zeiss MTF tests to make my decisions regarding MTF characteristics, when I'm thinking about buying Zeiss lenses. Until and unless somebody shows a problem with the Zeiss MTF methodology, I'm content to use it as the MTF baseline. Other test providers that provide conflicting data are simply part of the input, at a lower level of perceived reliability (for me), than the OEM. Happens all the time, and not only with Zeiss.


Huh? I wasn't promoting one over the other, just saying that optical bench testing, like the kind Zeiss does, may not be impacted by coating changes, where the kind DxO does, camera + lens shooting a backlit target, certainly would be impacted by improved anti-reflective coatings.



Oct 27, 2016 at 03:35 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO


freaklikeme wrote:
Huh? I wasn't promoting one over the other, just saying that optical bench testing, like the kind Zeiss does, may not be impacted by coating changes, where the kind DxO does, camera + lens shooting a backlit target, certainly would be impacted by improved anti-reflective coatings.


No worries, Brad. I didn't take it that way.



Oct 27, 2016 at 03:38 PM
MAubrey
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO


jcolwell wrote:
If a change in coatings changed the resolution and/or contrast, it should show in the Zeiss MTF diagrams.


Unless they didn't bother to do anything more than copy and paste the original diagrams.



Oct 27, 2016 at 06:28 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO


MAubrey wrote:
Unless they didn't bother to do anything more than copy and paste the original diagrams.


Bunkum.

I really don't think that's the case. OTOH, why beat around the bush ? I'll ask Zeiss.



Oct 27, 2016 at 07:27 PM
MAubrey
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Milvus testing better than classic Zeiss on DXO


jcolwell wrote:
Bunkum.

I really don't think that's the case. OTOH, why beat around the bush ? I'll ask Zeiss.


I hope not. It just seems odd to me that, despite Zeiss being known as the company that actually tests physical lenses rather than using calculating them from the design, we have here two mtf charts that are perfectly identical in every way. Real tests of real lenses should never be identical even for copies of the same lens, you know?



Oct 27, 2016 at 07:53 PM
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