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Archive 2016 · 5DSr & Otus 85 NOT SHARP wide open
  
 
DannyBurkPhoto
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · 5DSr & Otus 85 NOT SHARP wide open


I'm thinking that the intended point of focus was missed slightly; I've been fooled by the LV display when checking results too. You need the most perfect technique possible to get the best from the Otus at 1.4. It will thrill you when you get it right, but the tinest bit off and it will look soft.

You might extend a ruler away from the camera and focus on a given spot, wide open; then check your result on the computer and see whether the intended point of focus is accurate.



Oct 21, 2016 at 06:01 PM
HyperCams
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · 5DSr & Otus 85 NOT SHARP wide open


I HAVE to magnify the LiveView image while focusing with fast primes...I do not have the Otus, but all of my 1.4s(50 and 85mm) require me to zoom in even with my Sony a7 that has focus peaking. It just isnt accurate enough for a DoF that is razor thin...and hand holding is nearly impossible. I think you just need some practice with the combo taking some of the advice here with a grain of salt (as not everything, even my suggestion, is going to work perfectly for YOU..) and shoot, inspect, shoot, inspect, and rinse and repeat until you get what you want.
Good luck! Especially if your subject is anything moving..like my kids...lol



Oct 21, 2016 at 06:39 PM
philber
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · 5DSr & Otus 85 NOT SHARP wide open


CJ, here is one way how you can rule out certain variables. If you can, get your hands on a fully manual focus lens,where aperture is set by the aperture ring,and not by the camera body.Then, if your shot is sharp, you will know that this has nothing to do with the lens, and is caused by trouble due to the body taking a shot at an aperture different than when focusing


Oct 21, 2016 at 07:07 PM
Mike Jacks0n
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · 5DSr & Otus 85 NOT SHARP wide open


CJ Han wrote:
Let me clarify - I havn't even loaded the shots onto the computer, I was so distraught after just looking at them in "playback" on the 5DSr's LCD screen, I didn't bother..
You think the computer will show me a sharp file when the 5DSr screen shows it blurry?


So when you set-up in LiveView on a tripod it looks fine, but somewhere from pressing the shutter and writing it to the card the file gets blurry. If I'm honest I'd assume a user error is causing your issues. While I may be wrong, that would be my guess. It is odd you can get better results by stopping down. It is equally odd that it occurs with the 85 1.8 as well, at least in MF. Do what you can to find a way to post an example, but in the mean time here's a question:

Does the Canon 85 F1.8 autofocus just fine at 1.8?



Oct 21, 2016 at 08:28 PM
jeremy_clay
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · 5DSr & Otus 85 NOT SHARP wide open


use www.imgur.com to upload for free samples of what you are experiencing perhaps to help you out further.


Oct 21, 2016 at 09:09 PM
mudlake
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · 5DSr & Otus 85 NOT SHARP wide open


CJ Han wrote:
TY for the thoughts, wise words. I am thrown because the "live-view" images are so razor sharp, they could cut you - especially with the Otus. These are reading right off the sensor, and then throwing it to the LCD. At 1/4000 exposure, shake shouldn't exist, and I'm sure it doesn't. I'm new to this board - is it possible to upload images so everyone can see some samples, do you know?


You haven't answered the question whether or not you were using live view with 10x or 16x magnification. I assume you were, but if not, it would make all the difference.



Oct 21, 2016 at 09:17 PM
Vancouver47
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · 5DSr & Otus 85 NOT SHARP wide open


CJ Han wrote:
Brand new to this site/forum. Have a real brain-teaser. Got a 5DSr a few months ago, just getting around to testing it out. I find that with a solid tripod mount, using cable release, I am unable to capture a sharp image file with wide-open lenses. This is even using mirror lockup (which should be unnecessary). Using an Otus 85 at 1.4 @ 1/4000 & ISO 100, I get completely unfocused images, when they looked razor sharp in the vf & in live-view. I have the exact same condition using a Canon EF 85mm 1.8, IN MANUAL FOCUS MODE.
The
...Show more

My Otus 85 and 5Ds MF is perfect right down to f/1.4.

Unfortunately some focus screens require shims to match them perfectly with manual focus. Focus your lens with Live-View then look in the optical viewfinder. If its not perfectly in focus your focus screen is misaligned. Unfortunately there are no focus screen adjustments available for the 5DsR. Possible Canon CPS can make the adjustments.



Oct 24, 2016 at 03:17 AM
CJ Han
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · 5DSr & Otus 85 NOT SHARP wide open


Yes, 16X mag was used in all testing. I am getting closer to the truth, and unfortunately Canon CPS has been NO help. I believe my 5DRs is defective.
When I mount ANY lens on the camera, Canon or Zeiss, and turn on live-view, with either Exposure Simulation enabled or not, the diaphragm stops down to about 5.6 - there is NO WAY to prevent this from happening automatically every time with Live View. I have reset all camera settings to factory defaults, and this is the source of my problem.
So essentially - Camera's exposure (for the Otus 85) is set to 1.4 @ 1/4000, ISO 100. Live View is turned on, and instantly stops down to 5.6!! It's reacting to the light of the scene. Makes no difference if Exposure Simulation is enabled or not. I then focus on the LCD in Live-View (looking through f5.6) then take the exposure at 1.4, and hence I have discovered why my images are blurry. Why this happens, Canon cannot tell me, as a CPS member. If I depress the depth-of-field preview button, the lens opens up to 1.4. Other people on this board have said their 5DSr's + Otus 85's don't perform like this. I can find no reference anywhere that documents this behavior, other than the people who have been describing weird Live-View associated things with other Canon bodies, for about the last 4 years.



Oct 24, 2016 at 11:44 AM
 

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CJ Han
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · 5DSr & Otus 85 NOT SHARP wide open


So, in pursuing a problem encountered on a very precise shoot, with a 5DSr and Otus 85mm 1.4, I pursued 4 different avenues of Canon support, none of which could identify what I was describing; 2 different phone calls to 2 different tech reps at CPS, tech reps at the Canon EOS counter at the recent Photo Expo show in NYC, and 2 techs at the Canon CPS booth at the same show. Fair to say I felt I exhausted all “official” Canon support channels, short of dropping the camera off for in-warranty repair, and losing time.

I described the problem to Zeiss in Germany, and their tech was the only one who instantly, fully understood the operation of all Canon EOS bodies, and EF lenses, and hence Zeiss ZE mounts for Canon, with respect to Live-View operation, which addressed my out-of-focus problem. I don’t like at all how Canon has implemented “live-view” functionality, causing any lens’s diaphragm to automatically stop-down to ambient lighting conditions, despite how the camera’s set to record an image, but it is what it is. Ironic they (Zeiss) knew instantly, and the people who make, sell, and support the camera kept talking to me like I don’t know what I’m doing. Anyway, for anyone who’s trying to do very demanding, hi-res work, and using Canon’s “live-view”, here’s the procedure which MUST be followed (care of Zeiss) to get critically sharp images:

“From my point of view, I see the following details:

-It´s not a lens performance problem, it is just a focusing issue
-when focussed perfectly in live view mode with the pre-selected aperture, the resulting image is sharp exactly on the detail you have focussed to before.

I´m sure you are aware that you have to follow the following procedure for perfect focusing in live view mode with every Canon EOS camera body (and any EF mount lens attached) from a tripod:

-pre-select the largest aperture of the lens (f/1.4 with the Otus) in Av or M mode
-start the live view mode with the button
-use the maximum focus magnification
-PRESS THE STOP-DOWN BUTTON ON FRONT OF THE CAMERA TO FORCE THE EOS BODY TO OPEN THE APERTURE EXACTLY TO THE PRE-SELECTED VALUE (otherwise the camera always stops down the lens randomly according to the lighting conditions and the camera (ISO) settings)
-focus precisely to the desired detail in maximum focus magnification and f/1.4
-release the stop-down-button on the camera. Set another f-stop on the camera if you do not want to shoot a f/1.4.
-release the shutter.

If this procedure does not allow you to achieve a perfectly focussed image with any lens, there must be something wrong with the camera body.

Using the stop-down button on the camera in live view mode is essential, otherwise it is impossible to focus exactly when the camera had closed the iris randomly before.

According to the details you provided so far, there is nothing wrong with the lens itself”.


End of quote from Zeiss. The procedure the rep described above is what I ended up using myself, just to get through the shoot, all the while saying “this is crazy – it must be wrong”.
But no; sadly it’s correct.



Oct 24, 2016 at 04:14 PM
scottsoutter
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · 5DSr & Otus 85 NOT SHARP wide open


Thank you for reporting your findings. This will help me out going forward with my (slightly less finicky) ZE 100 MP and my more resolution challenged 5d2.


Oct 24, 2016 at 04:47 PM
splathrop
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · 5DSr & Otus 85 NOT SHARP wide open


Can you see any logical reason why that Zeiss procedure is not equivalent to simply doing your live-view focusing with the preview button activated, using the aperture at which you intend to shoot? That is what I have been doing, with seemingly good results, but with the dissimilarity (and complication) that I am generally stopped down to f/5.6 or f/8, and using a tilt lens (90 mm). I set it up, go to maximum magnification, depress preview button, and check the nearest foreground corner, and the most distant point in the frame which shows good detail. When they both check out, it's time to shoot.


Oct 24, 2016 at 04:59 PM
Ernie Aubert
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · 5DSr & Otus 85 NOT SHARP wide open


CJ, thanks a million for that! That could explain some out-of-focus live view shots I've gotten, and help me avoid them in the future.


Oct 24, 2016 at 06:23 PM
JohanEickmeyer
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · 5DSr & Otus 85 NOT SHARP wide open


As far as posting images here, you should be able to upload them to Imgur and post the images here with the sharing URL for the JPG. Doesn't require an account either. May help with the discussion. Sorry I do not have any help beyond that.


Oct 24, 2016 at 10:31 PM
CJ Han
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · 5DSr & Otus 85 NOT SHARP wide open


Ernie - that was my reason for sticking with this particular topic/forum as long as I did. I'm happy I could help at least 1 person.
Look, I know mfgrs sometimes get themselves up against the "technologiocal" wall. They find themselves implementing things simply to follow legacy decisions. But my whole point is that SOMEBODY at Canon Technical should be able to explain how their cameras work - at least their top-end cameras for sure, but all their products in fact. The money you spend on all this stuff doesn't come easy, and you're entitled to get every drop of quality out of what you own.

From a more photographically philosophical standpoint, when you press the Depth of Field preview button, it's supposed to close-down the aperture - at least that's how it's worked for the last 40-50 years. Why Canon chose to arbitrarily stop the aperture down to some unknown value, regardless of what the camera is set to expose at when you press "Live-View" is totally unknown. And then following this logic, when you do press the Depth of Field preview button it actually opens up the lens. The system is totally *ss backwards.

Anyway, I have Zeiss to thank for helping me figure out why my "Live-View" pictures weren't critically sharp. Now I just need another hand - 1 to press the DOF button, 1 to focus, and 1 to hold the loupe on the LCD, like I used to do in the old days when looking at the image on the ground-glass. But, at least my images are now razor-sharp.



Oct 25, 2016 at 11:33 AM
alundeb
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · 5DSr & Otus 85 NOT SHARP wide open


CJ, you must be pretty impressed by this forum, as you got the correct answer to your problem in the first reply


Oct 25, 2016 at 11:40 AM
CJ Han
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · 5DSr & Otus 85 NOT SHARP wide open


Alundeb - yes, in a way correct. And then the next step was to run it by the people who make the camera to check for concurrence - and that is the weak link. Looks like Zeiss understands how Canon's Live-View system works better than Canon's USA crew


Oct 25, 2016 at 11:59 AM
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