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Archive 2016 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photograph...

  
 
IrishDino
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photographers?


I could "fake" the overly gushy talk, but it would come across as so incongruent when they actually meet me.


Oct 20, 2016 at 09:33 AM
TheyCallMeJ
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photographers?


Do you really think that Gordon Ramsay yells and swears in front of the wife and kids when cooking at home, just like on TV? Those who worked with him behind the scenes and even the chef himself will attest that the always angry persona is created to draw viewers, in addition to differentiate himself from other celebrity chefs. So yes, it is designed to boost ratings, therefore more money.

Is the pursuit of money the end all, above all factor? Maybe, maybe not. You would have to ask yourself why you decided to pursue wedding photography in the first place.

However, in my humble opinion and relative short experience in this field, that it does require a certain personality to be a successful wedding photographer. At least, that persona would make your path much easier. A Gordon Ramsay, always angry style that constantly yells at family members, wouldn't make much sense. Whether that's the real you or not, it just doesn't fit into the wedding context. I treat my brides very differently due to our client-photographer relationship. I become another person when dealing with colleagues at work, acquaintances, personal friends and family. To be honest, I wouldn't consider myself being "fake", it is just that the various circumstances require me to behave a certain way.

It is just business, nothing personal. Yet, I draw the line very clearly between the two.



Oct 20, 2016 at 09:38 AM
BSPhotog
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photographers?


TheyCallMeJ wrote:
...However, in my humble opinion and relative short experience in this field, that it does require a certain personality to be a successful wedding photographer. At least, that persona would make your path much easier...


Hmm, this is an interesting thought in conjunction with the OP's original message. Maybe the issue isn't all of the phony lovey-dovey bullshit that some people use to market themselves, but the notion that this over-the-top veneer is what works for many clients.



Oct 20, 2016 at 09:50 AM
Chris Cooke
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photographers?


I might get burned at the stake or chased out of town for this but I think it holds a lot of truth......

As I can tell, most of the responses and the OP are men. I am also male. We are working in an industry that has been taken over by women. Is that a bad thing? No, of course not but it has changed the industry and the clients expectations. We have to be honest with ourselves that our main client is the bride and if you havent noticed the bride (typically) is a woman. Women gravitate to women so they will gravitate to the emotional, sensitive, heart warming marketing. This is why blogs are so popular and people are writing them the way they are.
Im not saying this is true of ALL brides but when the majority of engaged women spend a year, two years or all the years prior to her engagement reading glossy pages of bridal magazines, fashion magazines and inspirational messages on women empowerment sites its no doubt they lean towards the utopian marketing of whats out there now. Women want to feel like their wedding was "the best ever" they want to feel special and to surround themselves with people who will stoke that fire.

From my experience working in the wedding industry for the past 13 years(even though its been in a pretty local bubble) I have realized that Male shooters are more focused on the technical aspects of it. The right and wrong, the "rules" and everything being done the "right" way. Using the right gear, lighting it right, keeping to the technical way of doing things. Its the way the industry has been for decades. Women on the other hand are usually looking at one thing. How does the image make them (or the client) feel. Does it matter that the horizon is skewed? No. WB correct? NO. Using a 2.8 Lens? NO. (now there are a LOT of very technical female shooters out there and Im not trying to insult them but this is what I have experienced). But does that photo get "likes" , "comments" and "shares"? yes. Is it regarded as "beautiful" "sweet" and "lovely" Sure is! I was talking to a female colleague here in my area the other day and I was asking her about some of her shooting and processing and she couldnt tell me anything technical. She just uses a preset and runs with it. She makes good images but its not consistent. However she gets booked, A LOT because she has that personality and marketing that reaches out to the emotional side and the bride feeling pretty side of things.
I agree that the over sweet, super sappy, lovey dovey blogs, social media posts etc are VERY cheesy and very over done but its what is selling. Not just selling to brides but selling to photographers. Watch Creative Live for any amount of time or read blogs catered to women photographers and these buzz words are ALL OVER the place. ( I remember watching the Grays on CL and I loved the photography information but I COULD NOT STAND the over the top gushing, and use of words "amazing", "rock star" and "killing it") Its also why I have all but stopped writing "copy" on my blog. I don't want to gush and swoon over and over about details and feelings and loving love. I want to show what I do, and thats photograph weddings. Sure I love to photograph weddings but I don't need to talk about it EVERY post.
Where is the middle ground? Can we be technical and emotional at the same time? I think so but unfortunately you catch more bees with honey.



Oct 20, 2016 at 11:26 AM
FrancisK7
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photographers?


I love my job so much, you guys lift me up!


Oct 20, 2016 at 11:26 AM
IrishDino
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photographers?


FrancisK7 wrote:
I love my job so much, you guys lift me up!


Words can't even describe how much it makes my heart melt knowing that I made such a positive impact on your day #blessed #dreamjob #swoon



Edited on Oct 21, 2016 at 05:59 AM · View previous versions



Oct 20, 2016 at 11:44 AM
Tony Hoffer
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photographers?


MRomine wrote:
No disrespect felt.

But I think that you are mistaking WHAT my rant is about. My rant is not about those most noble of qualities, love and marriage, that I subscribe to and that I think that others should too. My rant is more about the WAY in which they are publicly proclaimed. I find it a bit disingenuous when you have to publicly tell your prospective clients how much you love your wife or your husband and/or children. Don't tell me, rather show me by going about your business. Otherwise it comes across a bit arrogant and self severing. It's
...Show more

So it sounds like your issue is as much with 'new' photographers as it is with 'super-positiveness'. Let me come at this from another way...

When you're new, you don't have an identity yet. Your photos aren't as good as they someday will be. You can't promote experience. You can't get industry referrals as easily. For a new person, the best sales tool is a positive attitude and a connection that an older photographer simply can't make.

Just like an older photographer sees that attitude as fake or a turn off, a new photographer sees the old-timers that promote their 'experience' as stale and out of touch. Both are probably true to some degree.

However, there's a good reason for both. It's the best sales tool many have.




Oct 20, 2016 at 11:45 AM
Tony Hoffer
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photographers?


Chris Cooke wrote:
I might get burned at the stake or chased out of town for this but I think it holds a lot of truth......

As I can tell, most of the responses and the OP are men. I am also male. We are working in an industry that has been taken over by women. Is that a bad thing? No, of course not but it has changed the industry and the clients expectations. We have to be honest with ourselves that our main client is the bride and if you havent noticed the bride (typically) is a woman. Women gravitate to
...Show more

This is a great post and I couldn't agree more with almost all of it.

I think the middle ground involves diversity. I've seen first hand how much our business benefits by having both men and women deeply involved with it. Even though I'm the driver of the car, clients almost always respond better to Amy... at least initially.

The good news is (especially for solo shooters) that there's lots of clients out there. Some love pretty, gushy things. Others love intricate, complex things. Some love a combination. If it's working for you, great!

The longer I do this, the less critical I get of the way others do it. If there's a photographer with weak work that's doing better than me, I now realize that they've earned it. They may not have earned it the way I WANT them to have earned it... but they still earned it.



Oct 20, 2016 at 11:50 AM
Jason Ferber
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photographers?


Chris Cooke wrote:
I might get burned at the stake or chased out of town for this but I think it holds a lot of truth......


No burning from me, agree with much of what you said.

Its also why I have all but stopped writing "copy" on my blog. I don't want to gush and swoon over and over about details and feelings and loving love. I want to show what I do, and thats photograph weddings. Sure I love to photograph weddings but I don't need to talk about it EVERY post.
Where is the middle ground? Can we be technical and emotional at the same time? I think so but unfortunately you catch more bees with honey.


There's another factor at play here though. SEO. Google can't crawl a photo, but sure as heck can find all those buzzy key words and move all those "lovey dovey over the top posts" up the ranking.



Oct 20, 2016 at 12:11 PM
MalachiConstant
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photographers?


A main reason I don't seek out weddings anymore. That, and what pinterest has done to peoples expectations of weddings/wedding photos.


Oct 20, 2016 at 01:17 PM
MRomine
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photographers?


Tony Hoffer wrote:
So it sounds like your issue is as much with 'new' photographers as it is with 'super-positiveness'. Let me come at this from another way...


That wasn't the intention but now that you mention it and I reflect on what I wrote I can see how it may have come across that way. That's because of what started me on the 'rant' in the first place, an e-mail ad promoting a young couple photography team. But no, I can say my real disdain is for, as you call it, the 'super-positive' type of hype vs young photographers in general. I think a more accurate tag instead of 'super-positive' would be 'slurpy-positive'. Because that is how it comes across, more slurpy than super. I also don't think it is limited to young photographers although it's probably more attributable to them than any other age bracket.

Tony Hoffer wrote:
When you're new, you don't have an identity yet. Your photos aren't as good as they someday will be. You can't promote experience. You can't get industry referrals as easily. For a new person, the best sales tool is a positive attitude and a connection that an older photographer simply can't make.

Just like an older photographer sees that attitude as fake or a turn off, a new photographer sees the old-timers that promote their 'experience' as stale and out of touch. Both are probably true to some degree.

However, there's a good reason for both. It's the best
...Show more

It's a million times easier for new start-up photographers to define an identity and a brand than pre-interenet, pre-social media photographers of today. When inexpensive Wordpress templates and an education in SEO technology you can pretty quickly, within a few months, get your brand and identity out there. Before the internet it took years and much expense with limited print media and word of mouth to accomplish and garner the same results.



Oct 20, 2016 at 01:57 PM
Chris Cooke
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photographers?


Tony Hoffer wrote:
I think the middle ground involves diversity. I've seen first hand how much our business benefits by having both men and women deeply involved with it. Even though I'm the driver of the car, clients almost always respond better to Amy... at least initially.

The good news is (especially for solo shooters) that there's lots of clients out there. Some love pretty, gushy things. Others love intricate, complex things. Some love a combination. If it's working for you, great!

The longer I do this, the less critical I get of the way others do it. If there's a photographer
...Show more

I think this is why so many husband and wife teams excel in todays market. its the best of both worlds. And I do agree with you when you say there are lots of clients out there. I think so many people in our industry miss that fact. They see all these new comers "stealing" business with their low prices yet established photogs wont touch weddings for that low. Sure there has been a shift of budgets and expectations since the "digital revolution" but there have also been increasing numbers of weddings. Sure right now the super sweetened wedding blogs are the norm but it will pass. Just like every other wedding trend. How many other trends have annoyed us since we have been shooting? This is just one of those things. It will last a few years (maybe a little longer) but its going to give way to another marketing, advertising, shooting trend. Keep calm and carry on!!



Oct 20, 2016 at 04:58 PM
mikethevilla
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photographers?


MRomine wrote:
So as long as the result makes more money or the end justifies the means it's ok?


I would gladly post cutesy captions all day everyday for a gross income of $350,000.

I also take tons of excellent detail shots, schmooze vendors with coffee and doughnuts, turn around next-day previews, and do plenty of other things that I wouldn't normally want to do. But at the end of the day, every job has parts that we don't love. It's up to you to decide if that's worth it or not.



Oct 20, 2016 at 06:07 PM
Tony Hoffer
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photographers?



mikethevilla wrote:
I would gladly post cutesy captions all day everyday for a gross income of $350,000


There are ways to make this (and much more) in this industry without losing your dignity...

However, this supposes that I had dignity to begin with. That's Questionable at best.



Oct 20, 2016 at 06:48 PM
glort
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photographers?


Chris Cooke wrote:
From my experience working in the wedding industry for the past 13 years(even though its been in a pretty local bubble) I have realized that Male shooters are more focused on the technical aspects of it. The right and wrong, the "rules" and everything being done the "right" way. Using the right gear, lighting it right, keeping to the technical way of doing things.


How many times have I gone on about this?
So many shooters ( male at least) are far more concerned about massaging their own egos than they are concerned about giving the clients what they want.

That said, I get on really well with all my clients but I NEVER suck up, crawl, lick their backsides or anything else. As I have also said many times, I believe in a factor of the opposite where they have to come to me in the deal so I have the power base and am in control.

I can only imagine what some of these other suck and crawl shooters get themselves into with client request and ridiculous complaints when they suck and crawl and pander the way they do.
I guess if you do suck and crawl and give endless meaningless platitudes, you will attract the soft of heart and head Clients. Obviously the people that don't live their life floating fairy floss and Pink unicorns are not going to be impressed with that. They will go to someone that does not insult their intelligence..... like me.

If I were to go on with this sickly sweet garbage, I can't think of a single client of mine that wouldn't run a mile. I can be very onboard with my brides and talk to them about things most other straight males couldn't because I understand what it really important to them, what they really want and are looking for and important, what their fears are and how to get them over that with genuine reassurance.

Rather than suck and crawl, more often than not I make fun of my clients to help them. I do it in a way that puts a realism on their worries, brings them out into the open and makes them look silly when they are not justified.
Where I am at least, platitudes really don't go very far. Making someone a little embarrassed and showing they are blowing things out of proportion or putting a different spin on them has a whole different effect in making them realise the truth and getting them over their fear or worry.
You can reassure people all you like but it's not till someone realises and comes to accept something themselves that they really get over something. Setting them up for a "Duuuh" moment with a bit of a laugh at their expense gets the message through real clear and while the opposite of suck and crawl, my clients do remember that and thank me for it a long time after because it sticks in their minds.

Like someone said, the suck and crawl and sugar coating wouldn't work for me even if I could do it. They would take one look at me and know it was all a crock of ship and they would dismiss me as not being genuine or trustworthy. Who the hell is going to book someone they don't trust or thinks is feeding them BS?

Geez, I cringe every time I read something that goes on about the most important or biggest day of their lives. If that's what you think, just wait till you grow up and see what's really important and what a big day really is.
I told a bride last Sunday when she came in to see me that I thought she was going to have a wonderful first wedding, several times. She laughed and I did get the booking.

As a bloke in this game I don't have to insult women with sugary sweet and sickeningly nice BS and garbage to get on side. I can talk to them about things they are concerned with in a polite and respectful way ( and not so much) and build a rapport from there. I work on honesty and trust.
I have no problems telling them, No, that is NOT a good idea, it sucks for these reasons but have you thought of..... MY clients appreciate that and I get a lot of cards and thank you letters telling me so. When they see you are not afraid to tell them something they don't want to hear for their own benefit, they know you are not just blowing sunshine and rainbows up their back side and they trust you. That builds a rapport and a very good working relationship.

It is the same with my glamour/ maternity work. Everyone out there is crapping on about the white and fluffy crap about having a baby. I say yeah we'll do a couple of shots of that for your mum and Aunties but enough about the baby, it's not here yet, how about we make you look look smoking hot like a pregnant sex Kitten? They laugh then when they come in tell me that I was the only one that thought about them and they were sick of the Oooh and Ahhh fluffy baby crap.
C'mon, Their hormones are raging, Their boobs have never been more upstanding and filled their Bras better, I know what they and the other half are really wanting some pictures of!
They wouldn't be coming to a shooter with a site full of naked women if they just wanted the typical hands on the Belly with the white shirt pics. Geez, is there a more overdone shot anywhere in photography?

I can only treat my clients the way I want to be treated and that is not with gushing platitudes and insincere compliments pulling the wool over their eyes the world is a picnic and everything is wonderful.
That makes me sick and to put it on others for business or any other reason is nothing short of scamming people in my book.

I respect people that tell me the truth and are honest with me and that's how I treat my clients.
It's worked perfect well for 30+ years and the day it doesn't is the day I'm going to have to retire from life let alone photography.

The clients that are so pathetic they need everything sugar coated can go take a running jump for all I care.
They won't want anything to do with me and that situation could not be more mutually agreeable.






Oct 20, 2016 at 08:13 PM
dhp_sf
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photographers?


mikethevilla wrote:
I would gladly post cutesy captions all day everyday for a gross income of $350,000.

I also take tons of excellent detail shots, schmooze vendors with coffee and doughnuts, turn around next-day previews, and do plenty of other things that I wouldn't normally want to do. But at the end of the day, every job has parts that we don't love. It's up to you to decide if that's worth it or not.


True Story: Mike bought me donuts and coffee when he came up to second shoot with me in Sept. Bacon Maple Donuts ftw.

I do find inauthentic gushing to be repulsive, but I consider it a challenge to myself to find something to be excited about with each client. But as others said, an emotional connection with our work (or at the very least the appearance of it) is important in establishing trust with future clients. I certainly wouldn't want to work with someone that seemed ambivalent about what they were producing. Though I do feel there is certainly a market space out there for people who don't get all gushy and fawny over their own work.



Oct 20, 2016 at 09:07 PM
mikethevilla
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photographers?


Tony Hoffer wrote:
There are ways to make this (and much more) in this industry without losing your dignity...

However, this supposes that I had dignity to begin with. That's Questionable at best.


To be fair, I haven't stooped to this level, as I definitely need more than cute captions to accomplish that. But, I'm just saying, if saying excessively nice things about our clients is the worst thing we're doing to run a successful business, I think we'll all be ok.



Oct 20, 2016 at 11:57 PM
Edward Castro
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photographers?


ZachOly wrote:
Bonus point if you say you cried during the ceremony or while you were editing.


Well, the only time I came close to was when I was taking pictures after the ceremony when the father was crying and kissing his daughter. At that moment I saw my self doing the same thing to my daughter which at the time was only around 2 years old. What can I say? I'm a big 280lb softy.



Oct 21, 2016 at 12:23 PM
BSPhotog
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photographers?


Edward Castro wrote:
Well, the only time I came close to was when I was taking pictures after the ceremony when the father was crying and kissing his daughter. At that moment I saw my self doing the same thing to my daughter which at the time was only around 2 years old. What can I say? I'm a big 280lb softy.


Therein lies the difference. You shared a special moment because you're human and have emotions. That's cool. Now working overtime as the emotional hype-man for 55 weddings a year as a marketing strategy, that is something very different.



Oct 21, 2016 at 12:45 PM
Edward Castro
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Rant - What's Wrong w/this Industry and it's sacchariny sweet photographers?


BSPhotog wrote:
Therein lies the difference. You shared a special moment because you're human and have emotions. That's cool. Now working overtime as the emotional hype-man for 55 weddings a year as a marketing strategy, that is something very different.


But I'm a robot!



Oct 21, 2016 at 12:52 PM
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