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Archive 2016 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?
  
 
Flowernut
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?


For those who have or used both, are you seeing the 5d4 as a replacement for the 5ds. How do the increased mega pixels balance out against the advantages of the 5D4? Is the increased mega pixals an advantage at all?


Oct 15, 2016 at 08:27 PM
EB-1
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?


No. I would not give up my 5DsR for anything with less pixels. The 5D IV is more of a body to use instead of the 1DX where applicable.

I am experiencing some advantages of the 5D IV, especially for the near macro work where DOF is a limiting factor anyway. It is easier to tame contrast in PP with the 5D IV and still maintain a natural looking image in the highlights and shadows. The 5D IV is fine as a backup landscape body, but I still far prefer the details of the 5DsR for such purposes.

EBH



Oct 15, 2016 at 08:42 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?


No. when comparing megapixels the 5D4 seems like a big step, but comparing linear pixel dimensions, it's marginally different from a 5D3.

BUT

For those who considered the 5DsR as a step up, from the 5D3, with better AF system, more room to crop and newer features like anti flicker and Viewfinder overlay, but don't necessarily need to print very big, I can see the 5D4 fit right into their photograph style.

It's for you to decide what kind if 5DsR user you'd be and how you would like a 5D4. I will stick with my 5DsR, I bought it while knowing the 5D4 was coming.



Oct 15, 2016 at 09:20 PM
bootster
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?


Here is a good video that I found really helpful.



Edited on Oct 15, 2016 at 09:30 PM · View previous versions



Oct 15, 2016 at 09:28 PM
EB-1
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?


You might want to fix that link.

EBH



Oct 15, 2016 at 09:30 PM
bootster
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?


Maybe you could wait more than 30 seconds.

Unlike most BB, you don't have any chance to preview your posts on here, and you get one shot at it, and then it's "cross your fingers" and hope it is right the first time.



Oct 15, 2016 at 09:31 PM
mogud
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?


Watched the video and while I respect the reviewer, I think he's trying to make the 5Dsr fit into his shooting style. Up until the release of the 50mpx bodies, Canon made generalist cameras. The exception has always been the 1-Series bodies.

I purchased my 5Dsr for landscapes and macro photography. The 5Dsr works perfectly for me. When I shoot macros, noise and high ISO doesn't come into play. Same with my landscape photography. If I need fast, high ISO, I use another body. With the 50mpx sensor, I don't need to stop the lens down to achieve sharp images because the sensor does that nicely. As a result, diffraction isn't a concern.

The need for monster computer systems to process large files seems to me to be somewhat overblown. Dustin sounds like his computer chuggs down to an almost painfull speed using Lr. I don't notice the slowdown at all and my system is 4+ years old as far as technology is concerned. I have no issue shooting handheld or with a tripod. I don't find the 5Dsr limiting shooting handheld.

IMHO, if you can't spring for the 1dx II and you need a capable all around camera with very good resolution, reasonable speed and capable AF, get the 5D IV. if you need or want the highest resolution get the 5Dsr.

Don't try and stick a round peg into a square hole and get annoyed because the peg is round.

To answer the OP. No, the 5D IV is not a replacement for the 5Dsr. Why would Canon release a new body with less mpx to replace a body with much more mpx?

Just sayin....

Edited on Oct 15, 2016 at 10:15 PM · View previous versions



Oct 15, 2016 at 09:54 PM
Tapeman
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?


I wouldn't give up either. I seldom have only one body with me. Sometimes the small amount of extra speed is better than the ability to crop severely, and visa versa.
I am very happy with both and haven't used my 1DIV or 5DII since getting them.
I would have a tough time recommending which to get first.



Oct 15, 2016 at 10:03 PM
dtolios
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?


I respect the casual style of the video, but I disagree with a couple of the premises, that are actually misconceptions in the minds of most photographers. And being Pro or Amateur doesn't make a difference, you can be just as wrong:

* 50MP don't produce more noise / are not noisier than 20MP. I mean, yes, there is more noise down to pixel level, but the pixel level you are scrutinizing things when @ 100% zoom in a 50MP file, is like a 200% zoom in a 20MP file. You have 2.5x the pixels, so if a 20MP file has Y number of "hot" pixels, you will have 2.5x Y pixels at a minimum. This is not "more noise"...it is actually the same noise proportionally.
It is just apples to oranges before you normalize the resolution to something comparable. And a 5DS/5DSR is not really noisier than a 6D if you normalize files down to 20MP, while there is no way to produce the 50MP by up-sizing 20MP.

* Similarly, the 5DSR doesn't need faster shutter speeds to produce sharp images, because the amount of detail produced is so much more, a sharp 50MP image - assuming a lens capable of out-resolving the 20MP sensor notably - is just apples to oranges to a sharp 20MP image, and scrutinizing both at 1:1 pixels is just unfair before you normalize them - up or down - to the same MP. It is like a person making 2x your income, arguing that the IRS is taking more taxes out of him in absolute $...sure dude, wanna trade places? Didn't think so! Cause people that make more, get to keep more. It is not a linear transition, but it is always more, and a 50MP sensor will always give you more than a 20MP.

The 5DS/R can produce at least as much if not more critically sharp information as any other 5D/6D body. Normalize them down to 20-23-30MP, and compare again: if the 5D3 or 6D is satisfactory sharp 1/80 sec and a 85mm lens, I would bet the 5DSR is identical, if not better. But when a 5DSR is "super sharp", pump the 2xMP sensor to whatever you want...will never get there.

And finally, I've been building previews for my LR catalogs forever...20D, 50D etc...and I've always had top or close to top of the line CPUs and all my desktop CPUs were overclocked ontop of that, i.e. close to fastest available hardware. Who works with real time rendered images



Oct 15, 2016 at 11:01 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?


A 20MP camera image shot a x/100 second will never be sharper than a 51MP image shot at X/100 second. On the other hand, the latter could be sharper than the former.

Noise from a 51MP image is smaller than than from a 20MP image. In the same way that the grain of fine grain film was less visible back in the film era, the noise in a 51MP image is smaller and less visible today.

Dan



Oct 15, 2016 at 11:55 PM
 

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Pixel Perfect
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?


It's a good question but ultimately come down to what type of shooting you do. The 5DsR has the best IQ in normal situations and for landscape cannot be beaten IMO by any other Canon camera. The good news is it's AF system is excellent and it can double as an action or wildlife camera too even with only 5fps. The 5D4 has some noticeable improvements for sure but I'd call it the best all rounder camera and not best in class in any area but still near the top. If I were a wedding shooting I'd grab the 5D4 for the extra DR and even better AF and high ISO noise.

If Canon had made it sans AA filter, 8-9fps, and had tilt screen and priced it say at $2999 I probably would already own one. As it is I'm more excited about the rumoured 5DsR replacement before end of next year.

So if you own the 5DsR already I wouldn't swap, maybe add it along side, but then I'd add a 1DXII. If you don't own either then I'd probably get the 5D4 for sure, unless you are mostly into landscape and/or like to print big.

Edited on Oct 17, 2016 at 01:45 AM · View previous versions



Oct 16, 2016 at 12:01 AM
rabbitmountain
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?


Good Point Whayne, it actually is about what you shoot. If the 5DsR would not have come to exist, the 5D4 now would have been canons answer to high resolution nikons and sonys and canon shooters would prefer it over the 20mp cameras for landscapes, commercial and studio. Now that the 5DsR is actually there, and now that some of us get one to serve as the ultimate tool for a limited application like studio and/or large format printing, we come to realise that it actually does much more types of shooting very well. As you say, wildlife, a bit of sports. It's my only camera body now and I can use it for most of what I want. If I had gotten a 1Dx or x2 as a first and only camera, that body could also have done most of what I want, leaving only very large printing to be desired, a gap that could be filled with a 5DsR.

The point is I guess that for the majority of subjects, all three camera lines 1Dx, 5D4 and 5DsR are very suitable and their emphasis only lies in very specific areas. Considering whether it's worth adding a second model to your kit may depend on which model you own first. If you first get a 1Dx or 5D4, and consider that to be your main body for everything except some specific areas and later add a 5DsR, expecting to use it only for those limited application, it may feel different than if you start with a 5DsR and then add a 1Dx. Eventually, which body will you use for the 80% average type of shooting? Then again sports shooters will probably only use two 1Dx's and wedding shooters only 2 5D4's or 5D4/5DsR combo.

Back to topic I feel the 5D4 is at least as different from the 5DsR as from the 1Dx(2), in that when looking at final output a 5DsR can excel in one particular area being extremely large printing and a 1Dx(2) can excel in providing the particularly interesting frame in a sequence thanks to its high fps. Apart from that each of these cameras can produce about the same output for 80% of subjects. This is from an output point of view. If looking at other things like preference for ergonomics, responsiveness, AF and controls, each photographer will have their personal preference to shoot that 80% of general subjects with a particular type of camera.

The 5DsR wil keep its own place in the lineup, despite looking a lot like the 5D4 in model name and appearance.



Oct 16, 2016 at 03:17 AM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?


5dsr has significantly higher resolution (lack of AA filter and way more pixels). If you are primarily about landscapes, I think it is a way better choice.

After spending countless hours, choosing the highest resolution lens, setting the focus in the right spot, walking to remote areas multiple times until finally the sun shines in the right spot, carrying that dam tripod for a week while backpacking, and the leaves are just right, processing in photoshop with multiple images and much work..... it is frustrating that my best shots with 20d or 5d2 of yesteryear can be printed as big as I would like.

I will not upgrade for landscape or wildlife (5d4 has less effective reach after cropping and 5dsr is fast enough for big animal photography that I do) unless the 5d5 is at least 50mpx or another stop better at high iso.



Oct 16, 2016 at 03:17 PM
dgdg
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?


The 5div f/8 autofocus is an important difference if you need it. I will use a 2x fairly often with the 600mm. Focus and recompose has its hazards if you only have the center point af.


Oct 16, 2016 at 05:49 PM
arbitrage
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?


dgdg wrote:
The 5div f/8 autofocus is an important difference if you need it. I will use a 2x fairly often with the 600mm. Focus and recompose has its hazards if you only have the center point af.


This is probably the only reason other than possible higher-ISO performance that I've even had second thoughts about keeping the 5DSR and skipping the 5D4.

After going through my images from Japan/Korea I think the 5DSR was the right tool for the job as it allowed me to crop big for birds and have lots of details for the scenery and temples.

That said, I don't often print and in some ways the 5D4 may be better for a general travel camera for me as I don't need 50MP for travel landscapes and architecture ....however I think I would have missed the use of the crop for birds. The biggest issue for me with the 5DSR is just how slow the camera is to display images and the fact that 5FPS drops down to around 3 once the battery is half empty (possibly even earlier). I wouldn't use the low ISO DR on the 5D4 but I would make use of the f/8 AF points and the higher FPS and the higher-ISO. There just isn't a camera that can do it all right now....



Oct 16, 2016 at 05:59 PM
Flowernut
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?


To summarize, it seems the consensus is that the detail of 50mpx with no AA filter trumps 30, provided dynamic range, higher iso and f8 auto focus are not needed. For me, that sounds like landscapes off a tripod in good lighting and/or static subjects in general. Also special situations that requires major cropping or extremely large prints provided your technique is really good.


Oct 16, 2016 at 06:52 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?


Like I said in another topic the advantage of being able to use 61 AF points with f/8 combos on the 5D4 is almost entirely compensated by the higher resolution of the 5DsR. In other words, you could take off the 1.4x extender and shoot the bare lens on the 5DsR and have all 61 AF points. Or mount a 1.4x instead of a 2x.

Preview blackout and fps of course is another matter. I don't think 7 fps vs 5 fps is a world of difference but yes it's a difference.

I believe at the end of the day if you can't afford to buy or carry 4-5 different cameras dedicated to each different type of subject, you simply decide on the one or two that most closely match your needs. So if you own a 5DsR, the added benefits of the 5D4 will not be worth the steep price, unless in some extreme scenarios or if you needed a backup / 2nd body anyway.



Oct 16, 2016 at 06:59 PM
arbitrage
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?


rabbitmountain wrote:
Like I said in another topic the advantage of being able to use 61 AF points with f/8 combos on the 5D4 is almost entirely compensated by the higher resolution of the 5DsR. In other words, you could take off the 1.4x extender and shoot the bare lens on the 5DsR and have all 61 AF points. Or mount a 1.4x instead of a 2x.

Preview blackout and fps of course is another matter. I don't think 7 fps vs 5 fps is a world of difference but yes it's a difference.

I believe at the end of the day
...Show more

The point about 1.4 vs 2 TC is something I hadn't thought about but makes all the sense in the world. So now the 5D4 is really for me only about higher ISO and 2 FPS. Not sure if the 5D4 drops FPS as early as the 5DSR does but the FPS difference could be up to 4FPS if it doesn't. Unless you carry enough batteries to be swapping them out of the 5DSR at 50% or earlier.

I feel the 5DSR higher ISO is actually very good and if you are using the entire frame I think it can be comparable to the 5D4 after downsizing and it is at least equal or better than 5D3. However, if I use the 5DSR to crop to 7D2 resolution then the noise starts to hurt the image more and seems to be closer to 7D2 quality.



Oct 16, 2016 at 07:27 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?


Hi Geoff,

Yes absolutely. 5DsR higher ISO shots only hold up to 5D3 noise levels if sized down to 21mp. So you can't have your cake and eat it too, I mean it's either higher ISO full image or low ISO cropped.

Did you already pick up the 5D4 or are you still debating purchase?

I use a BG for my 5DsR and I have two batteries. When I load two fully charged batteries in the grip, I never have slowdown issues.

Whether or not the 5D4 can be a good second camera for a 5DsR user really depends on how badly you want identical body form factors and what you shoot. To me, choosing a 1Dx or 1Dx2 makes more sense as a second camera because it can do all the 5D4 can and provide high fps and some better video features. I can use those features for the occasional sports and running dog shooting that I like to do. On top of that, the 5DsR / 1Dx2 combo would give me a feeling of being ready for any photographic challenge, gear wise.



Oct 16, 2016 at 07:51 PM
Tony Rogers
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · 5d iv replacement for 5dsR?


No, the 5D IV is not a replacement for the the 5Ds or 5Dsr. It's a replacement for the 5D III, pure and simple.

The 1 series had the tradition of the 1D series for high speed lower resolution, and the 1Ds series for high resolution lower speed. Until someone in Canon decided that the the high res shooters didn't need the heavy duty body.

So now Canon have decided that the high res shooters get a 5 series body instead of a 1 series. And that's fine - to be honest, I'm enjoying the (mild) weight reduction, although I'm missing the portrait grip (I really don't like attachable grips - they don't feel solid to me).

I expect to see the 5 series do what the 1 series used to do - separate updates to the lower res version and the higher res version. It will be interesting to see how many versions we get :-)

I wonder if we'll see another 1Ds model?



Oct 16, 2016 at 08:24 PM
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