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Archive 2016 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!

  
 
kevindar
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!


rabbitmountain wrote:
Hi Charles,
I followed this topic with interest. First, I think you should stop testing the 5DsR sensor by using the 24-105. Especially at 24mm where this lens is not at its best. Go ahead and use your 50/1.4 @f/8 and focus in Live View. You will see a different sensor arise.
Second, I must say that I don't understand why someone says a 5D4 would provide better images than a 5DsR if not using a tripod. I have taken very sharp handheld shots at all focal lengths varying from 16mm to 560mm and the results are so good, that something else
...Show more

Since I allegedly said that (allegedly, b/c those were not exactly my words) let me explain further, in case it was not clear.

When one shoots landscape, you would ideally like to shoot at f8-f11 for proper dof, iso 100 for least noise and max DR, and a lit of times, during golden hour. that often leads to shutter speeds which are not very conducive to max detail and resolution from the sensor. That, in many practical situations, may negate the difference in resolution between 5dsr and 5d4 (though obviously not always). However, 5d4 does offer more dynamic range, at all iso settings. and that can prove to be more useful, more often, than the extra resolution. .

I would also say, I would personally take the sony a7R with 36mp and 13.7 stops of DR over 5dsr with 50Mp and 12 stops of DR, even shooting off of a tripod. I find that for at least up to 24x36 prints, how clean the files are make more of a difference than the MP count.

I think a 5dsr with 5d4 DR would be ideal of course.



Oct 16, 2016 at 05:22 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!


I see what you mean. I may have misquoted you, not sure. My take is that I would not shoot off tripod if there would be risk of camera shake induced motion blur. I can get very sharp results with my 16-35/4IS @¼-⅛ s thanks to IS. Not sure why a 5DsR would not show its ncreased resolution. But I'm interested.


Oct 16, 2016 at 05:56 PM
jcolwell
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!


The 5DS R has the same resolution as the 7DII. Anybody that can shoot a sharp handheld image with a 7DII will get the same sharpness on the 5DS R.


Oct 16, 2016 at 06:08 PM
fplstudio
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!


Many (including me) are wondering which way to go maybe because the two cameras are very close and in the real world are more similarities than differences. Which means that the decision is tough but also that either way one should be perfectly happy.

Given the above, I am basically wondering what do I give up by choosing one or the other?

Certain

5ds/r: wifi, gps, touchscreen, 61 AF at f/8, iso>6400, size-friendly files, dpaf
5d iv: cropping, large prints

Questionable/marginal
5ds/r: noise, dinamic range, handheld shots, speed
5d iv: price

It seems that the reason to go 5ds/r - besides the price that in some countries is more than marginal - is in essence the significant larger resolution which translates into larger prints and extreme cropping.



Oct 16, 2016 at 10:22 PM
EB-1
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!


jcolwell wrote:
The 5DS R has the same resolution as the 7DII. Anybody that can shoot a sharp handheld image with a 7DII will get the same sharpness on the 5DS R.


+1 I have no idea why people keep going on about hand holding the 5Ds/R.
The 5DsR with a modern IS lens such as the 100-400 II produces hand held images that are sharp at ridiculously low shutter speeds.

EBH



Oct 16, 2016 at 10:30 PM
kevindar
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!


EBH, very good point. however, this discussion is actually not limited to just high resolution full frame cameras. It has repeatedly stated about crop cameras that as pixel density goes higher, the 1/focal length (or 1/1.6x focal length) rule does not really apply, given the higher pixel density, with faster shutter speeds really needed. but you are right the the new IS def helps.




Oct 16, 2016 at 10:43 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!


If you need speed more than the ability to print at larger than 20" x 30" sizes, the 5DIV is more likely the camera for you.

If you print at very large sizes (and shoot in ways that preserve a lot of detail) the 5DsR is more likely the camera for you.

Dan

fplstudio wrote:
Many (including me) are wondering which way to go maybe because the two cameras are very close and in the real world are more similarities than differences. Which means that the decision is tough but also that either way one should be perfectly happy.

Given the above, I am basically wondering what do I give up by choosing one or the other?

Certain

5ds/r: wifi, gps, touchscreen, 61 AF at f/8, iso>6400, size-friendly files, dpaf
5d iv: cropping, large prints

Questionable/marginal
5ds/r: noise, dinamic range, handheld shots, speed
5d iv: price

It seems that the reason to go 5ds/r - besides the price that in some countries is
...Show more



Oct 16, 2016 at 10:59 PM
charlesk
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!


rabbitmountain wrote:
I followed this topic with interest. First, I think you should stop testing the 5DsR sensor by using the 24-105. Especially at 24mm where this lens is not at its best. Go ahead and use your 50/1.4 @f/8 and focus in Live View. You will see a different sensor arise.


Well the 100mm macro test I posted proves this point. But the reason I tested the 24-105 was because that's the lens I mostly use.

EB-1 wrote:
+1 I have no idea why people keep going on about hand holding the 5Ds/R.
The 5DsR with a modern IS lens such as the 100-400 II produces hand held images that are sharp at ridiculously low shutter speeds.

EBH


I find that it does require a bit more patience and attention, but most of the time even at 1/60s the results are pretty good. And the new 24-105 should have better IQ and also better IS.



Oct 17, 2016 at 11:52 AM
Jeff Simpson
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!


Sounds like you guys are trying to justify the 5Ds/r

The 5DIV is the better option hands down if you do NOT plan to continuously print large or make 1000% pixel edits. In reality that probably means the 5DIV is the better option for most here. How often do you really plan to print super large?...

The added benefits of the 5DIV (screen, dynamic range, ISO, etc) clearly are more advantageous than the added resolution of the 5Ds/r for most people.

I own both and have yet to decide which will be coming with me to the caribbean and patagonia this December. I fall in the category of needing both DR and high res =/



Oct 17, 2016 at 04:45 PM
adrianb
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!


don't want to sound like a snob, but deciding between a 3700$ or a 3500$ body and only shooting with a 24-105 F4L lens.... strikes me as odd, to say the least...

I always used to read this rubbish on the web (and not only), that "it's all about the glass" and sometimes it's true, sometimes it's false.

There should always be some logic behind choosing the right lenses for the appropriate body ,coupled with the type of shooting that one photographer has.


You can't go and spend XXXX $ on a 500 F4L IS II and hope to shoot wildlife if you're still using a 1D mark II, you're probably better off getting at least a 5D3 with a 100-400 II and you'll probably get much more better results, by a mile...

Also you can't get a XXXX $ body (like 5D IV or 5DsR) and think you can pull off great landscape photography with only 24-105 F4L, when you have a lot more lenses to choose from (such as 16-35 F4L IS, etc).

One should tend to avoid having discrepancy between the body & the lens.

I haven't used these monster-megapixel-cameras (because they do not interest me),but the consensus is that they really put pressure on the lens ( meaning you do really want to attach good lenses if you really want to put that resolution to good use).

If you get a 30+mp camera and all you do is web work (web sized images), there really is no point to it, is it? (the dynamic range discussions make me laugh when web sized images are involved).

just my 2c...



Oct 17, 2016 at 05:19 PM
EB-1
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!


adrianb wrote:
You can't go and spend XXXX $ on a 500 F4L IS II and hope to shoot wildlife if you're still using a 1D mark II, you're probably better off getting at least a 5D3 with a 100-400 II and you'll probably get much more better results, by a mile...


The 5DsR makes a good pairing with the 100-400 II for decent wildlife reach on a reasonable budget or when size/weight are an issue.

EBH




Oct 17, 2016 at 06:01 PM
adrianb
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!


EB-1 wrote:
The 5DsR makes a good pairing with the 100-400 II for decent wildlife reach on a reasonable budget or when size/weight are an issue.

EBH



you make a good point but you're also missing out my point

My point is to have some balance between the tech on the camera and the tech on the lens...

mThe 5DsR probably does everything what a 5D3 does, and even more (but that's beyond the point here)




Oct 17, 2016 at 06:06 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!


Hi Adrian, I believe you have a valid point in general. Still everyone's needs and habits differ so there are exceptions. In my own experience, having higher quality lenses on older bodies did prove to be a good strategy. I have made money as recent as 12 months ago using a 5D and 5D2 for weddings and portraits, and I used lenses like the 70-200//2.8ii and 85Lii. The bodies were not limiting factors. Your example (1D2 with 500/4) appears to be proving your point but I could think of situations where the fast and accurate 1D2 AF and beautiful rendering of the 500/4 could provide better final images than a 5D3+100-400, especially if output size is not critical.
Also, some may update bodies every two years, others every five or eight years. The latter group may try to assess what a body (i.e. 5DsR) can do before buying, even though they will use older lenses (i.e. 24-105) for a while and are planning to update to newer versions in the future. Everyone has different needs and habits.
Still it is important to know what you are doing especially when assessing the ability or quality of a piece of gear. Shooting a 24-105 at 24mm wide open to assess resolution or sharpness of the 5DsR can be a disappointing experience as the weakest link will bias the outcome. Once the new 24-105ii gets mounted balance will be restored.



Oct 17, 2016 at 10:12 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!


adrianb wrote:
If you get a 30+mp camera and all you do is web work (web sized images), there really is no point to it, is it? (the dynamic range discussions make me laugh when web sized images are involved).

just my 2c...


If you do web sized work only, a current smartphone maybe all you need. The quality of the images and the AF of my S7 Edge are impressive and easily good enough for web sized images and larger at lower ISO's. But you do lose any semblance of DoF control, you have no zooming ability other than cropping, and it's a one size fits all approach.

The main reason why you would spend say $3700 on a 5DsR and not $1600 on a 7DII say is you want the extra pixels for the detail, the ability to print large and the flexibility afforded in cropping when needed, but he IQ will be generally much better than 7DII when not cropping hard. Plus you get all the benefits of FF vs crop.

But it's a lot of money so the crop cameras are great for those say wanting to do wildlife on a budget where as you say you can't afford the superteles. But the good news now is we also have access to great quality 500/600mm zooms that are excellent value and they make both crop and even moderate pixel FF cameras great wildlife combos, where even 400mm is often too little on crop.



Oct 18, 2016 at 12:17 AM
adrianb
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!


Pixel Perfect wrote:
If you do web sized work only, a current smartphone maybe all you need. The quality of the images and the AF of my S7 Edge are impressive and easily good enough for web sized images and larger at lower ISO's. But you do lose any semblance of DoF control, you have no zooming ability other than cropping, and it's a one size fits all approach.

The main reason why you would spend say $3700 on a 5DsR and not $1600 on a 7DII say is you want the extra pixels for the detail, the ability to print large and
...Show more

web sized work doesn't necessarily mean 600px on the long side photos...

That being said, the comparison with smartphone is out of place... I can't see a smartphone covering sports,wildlife, events etc....

A smartphone is ok for casual shooting and that's that. I couldn't care less for those who go the extra effort to shoot with phones and various light sources in studios just to make some silly points... those examples don't interest me.

You choose a 5DsR over a 7D II solely by your phtographing style and subjects (and obviously... price).

Printing large is probably the biggest advantage of the high megapixel cameras and the flexibility of crop.

Flexibility of crop (as in the act of cropping ) which brings us to another comparison you made, between 5DsR and 7DII. I can see the 5DsR more versatile and suited for wildlife (in MY opinion) than the 7DII.

I'm not buying into the crop factor for wildlife (giving you a fake 'close up' perception).

Cameras and gear have come a long way and now there's plenty to choose from , also plenty combinations of cameras & lenses to choose for specific type of shooting..

If we're talking wildlife (as you mentioned it): you still have the budget choices like old 100-400, 300 f4L IS, 400 5.6L and as we move higher we have the new 100-400 II, the 2 zooms from Tamron and Sigma (150-600), and then we reach the layer cake with used versions of 300 2.8, 500 F4, and then 400 2.8 and 600 f4. (depending how much somebody is willing to pay).



Oct 18, 2016 at 05:45 AM
adrianb
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!


rabbitmountain wrote:
Hi Adrian, I believe you have a valid point in general. Still everyone's needs and habits differ so there are exceptions. In my own experience, having higher quality lenses on older bodies did prove to be a good strategy. I have made money as recent as 12 months ago using a 5D and 5D2 for weddings and portraits, and I used lenses like the 70-200//2.8ii and 85Lii. The bodies were not limiting factors. Your example (1D2 with 500/4) appears to be proving your point but I could think of situations where the fast and accurate 1D2 AF and beautiful rendering
...Show more

Trust me, there are very limited scenarios where a 1D2 + 500 F4 could exceed the IQ from 5D3 + 100-400 II.

Not to mention that in wildlife you shoot in various types of light (evening,sunset & morning). That puts a lot of pressure on ISO and shutterspeed etc.

The ISO numbers for 1D2 and 8.2 megapixel doesn't quite cut it. The only place where you'd be probably 'care free' with it is at a pond in mid day, when the light is good.

Speaking of weddings, the 5D is a terrific camera, I can see it holding its own in good light, as long as you shoot below iso 800, if you have good glass attached to it (like you said, 70-200 II, 85L II etc).

I agree with what you said about the 24-105. I'm also curious to see how the new 24-105 performs, if it follows the IQ line of 70-200 II, 24-70 II and 16-35 F4L IS, then it can be a very versatile lens.



Oct 18, 2016 at 05:53 AM
Scott Stoness
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!


adrianb wrote:
don't want to sound like a snob, but deciding between a 3700$ or a 3500$ body and only shooting with a 24-105 F4L lens.... strikes me as odd, to say the least...

just my 2c...


The old 24-105f4 is not nearly as bad as you think it is - particularly at f8 or f11 where the majority of landscape shots occur.

24/f8 very small
https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EF-24-70mm-F28L-II-USM-on-Canon-EOS-5DS-R-versus-EF24-105mm-f-4L-IS-USM-on-Canon-EOS-5DS-R__886_1009_164_1009

35mm / f8 - very small
https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EF-24-70mm-F28L-II-USM-on-Canon-EOS-5DS-R-versus-EF24-105mm-f-4L-IS-USM-on-Canon-EOS-5DS-R__886_1009_164_1009

50mm/f8 very small
https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EF-24-70mm-F28L-II-USM-on-Canon-EOS-5DS-R-versus-EF24-105mm-f-4L-IS-USM-on-Canon-EOS-5DS-R__886_1009_164_1009

70mm/f8 only different on edges by modest amount
https://www.dxomark.com/Lenses/Compare/Side-by-side/Canon-EF-24-70mm-F28L-II-USM-on-Canon-EOS-5DS-R-versus-EF24-105mm-f-4L-IS-USM-on-Canon-EOS-5DS-R__886_1009_164_1009

Shooting with a 24-105 at f8 on 5dsr is appropriate for landscape - 24-70v2 is a bit better at f8 but 24-70v2 cannot do 70-105mm.



Oct 21, 2016 at 09:33 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!


Thank you Scott for linking to evidence that confirms why it was the right decision to sell my copy. You have a very valid point that this lens is very good stopped down at most FL's. And if that is how one uses this lens mostly then yes, it probably need not be replaced. But for me, frequently shooting wide open, it keeps disappointing.


Oct 22, 2016 at 01:56 AM
adrianb
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!


most lenses will be good stopped down, and since the 24-105 is so good for landscape, I wonder why people still use 14mm, 24mm , 16-35, 24-70, 70-200 for landscapes

hell, why don't they just buy the 28-300L ,since they're gonna shoot f8/f11 etc



Oct 23, 2016 at 09:38 AM
Abbott Schindl
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Still torn between 5DSr and 5D4!


adrianb wrote:
I'm not buying into the crop factor for wildlife (giving you a fake 'close up' perception).


Regarding cropping: one thing I like about the 5DSR vs 7DII (I own both) is that I find it easier to track larger birds and to compose a lot of my wildlife images. The FF FoV being wider than the crop at the same distance and same subject-on-sensor size gives me breathing room to get just the composition I want after pp. For me it's not about getting "crop factor equivalence" from a FF body—rather it's about getting the composition I want and/or making it easier to track the subject.

And yes, I might be able to accomplish something similar using a shorter FL on the crop (eg 400mm on crop vs 5-700 on the FF), but I find 500mm f/4 (II) images on my 5DSR much nicer than 100-400 (II) images on the 7DII.

I really believe that the question of 5DIV vs 5DSR vs something else is more a matter of what one shoots and their style rather than which of these excellent bodies one has.



Oct 23, 2016 at 01:03 PM
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