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Archive 2016 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...
  
 
RustyBug
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...


I just spoke with Canon about modifying my 80D, but they said "No can do."

I would have been good with either:

AA removal, or

5DsR type AA

Unfortunately, they said I'd have to go out to 3rd Party (pretty sure I know who the next call goes to) to have the mod done. Just passing along in case someone else might have been thinking the same.

Also, I asked about 6D II with articulating display in FF ... they suggested I'd been reading Canon Rumors site.



Oct 13, 2016 at 11:39 PM
EB-1
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...


Does removal cause any ill effects with unwanted UV and IR sensitivity or any issues with the AF?

EBH



Oct 13, 2016 at 11:46 PM
johnctharp
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...


Also wonder how AA-removal might affect DPAF functionality... but if it doesn't and someone (Kolari?) can do it reliably, they might make a pretty penny until Canon fixes the problem themselves .


Oct 14, 2016 at 12:07 AM
EB-1
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...


The Finns?

EBH



Oct 14, 2016 at 12:10 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...


Thinking @ keeping to visible spectrum. Not sure yet about possible DPAF impact.


Oct 14, 2016 at 12:22 AM
AJSJones
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...


http://blog.topazlabs.com/whats-the-difference-between-topaz-detail-and-the-new-topaz-infocus/

I use this routinely - there is a sensitive threshold for radius - for my 5D2 it did not do much at <1 pixel, too much at 2 or more pixels and 1.3 or 1.5 seemed optimal. Noticeable increase in "perceived" MP without any indication of "sharpening". It even works on my 5DsR at ~1.2 pixel radius.
There's a trial period here if you want to check it out - its impact has always been superior for me to any comparisons of before and after AA removal I've seen http://www.topazlabs.com/infocus



Oct 14, 2016 at 01:20 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...


AJSJones wrote:
http://blog.topazlabs.com/whats-the-difference-between-topaz-detail-and-the-new-topaz-infocus/


Thanks, but ...

Deming 101: I'd rather start without the blur, than try to fabricate the contrast offset through more PP after starting with a lesser quality image. Where you start impacts where you end, kinda thing.

After several years of shooting with a true no AA filter camera (SLR/C), it's really against my nature to fuzzify the projected image.



Oct 14, 2016 at 01:48 AM
AJSJones
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...


RustyBug wrote:
Thanks, but ...

Deming 101: I'd rather start without the blur, than try to fabricate the contrast offset through more PP after starting with a lesser quality image. Where you start impacts where you end, kinda thing.

After several years of shooting with a true no AA filter camera (SLR/C), it's really against my nature to fuzzify the projected image.


Of course we know your stance on this but if it can't be done physically on the 80D then there is this option ... Personally, I think you overestimate the "fuzzification" done by AAs these days - a 1 px square AA does about as much "fuzzification" as a 0.2 or 0.3 gaussian blur and it has a known point spread function so deconvolution can be done quite accurately - but I doubt there's any convincing at this stage



Oct 14, 2016 at 05:58 AM
Ian.Dobinson
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...


RustyBug wrote:
I just spoke with Canon about modifying my 80D, but they said "No can do."



I'm pretty sure that would be their answer with any Canon body . and no surprise at all there .

lets face it you wouldn't buy a car and then ask the MANUFACTURE to throw a different engine in there or something would you ?



Oct 14, 2016 at 06:27 AM
johnctharp
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...


Ian.Dobinson wrote:
lets face it you wouldn't buy a car and then ask the MANUFACTURE to throw a different engine in there or something would you ?


More like having them remove the limiter... but yeah. They ain't gonna do it for you.



Oct 14, 2016 at 06:37 AM
 

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charlyw
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...


RustyBug wrote:
After several years of shooting with a true no AA filter camera (SLR/C), it's really against my nature to fuzzify the projected image.


So you rather have your images horribly disfigured by aliasing artifacts (the SLR/C is truly horrible in this regard) which are inevitable without AA filter as long as the resolution of the camera is well below the 150Mp threshold where even the best physically possible lenses no longer can resolve single pixels...



Oct 14, 2016 at 07:33 AM
dhphoto
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...


Canon made the 80D the way they did for a reason. Trying to 'improve' on it by removing bits is doomed to failure IMHO.

If it really isn't sharp enough best get a 5DSR



Oct 14, 2016 at 07:36 AM
charlyw
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...


dhphoto wrote:
If it really isn't sharp enough best get a 5DSR


Rather make that a: If that really doesn't show enough digital artifacts then get a 5DsR... Because all the removal of the AA filter does is to create false colors around edges which basically are digital sampling artifacts, not sharpness...



Oct 14, 2016 at 07:43 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...


charlyw wrote:
So you rather have your images horribly disfigured by aliasing artifacts (the SLR/C is truly horrible in this regard) which are inevitable without AA filter as long as the resolution of the camera is well below the 150Mp threshold where even the best physically possible lenses no longer can resolve single pixels...


Hmmm, if my images over my several years of shooting the SLR/C were "horribly disfigured" by artifacts, then I (as well as clients and jurors) must have horribly disfigured eyes.


I understand the theory @ your point of 150MP ... but, ummm well, ummm ... the lighting, lens, subject are all part of the equation as well, not just the sensor resolution math.

Given that Medium Format and others have been sans AA filter ... well, no need to re-hash the issue ad nauseum ... let's just leave it at I prefer to shoot without an AA filter and with an articulating display. Granted, I could go with the 5DsR and return to my angle finder, but atm the 80D fits my hand well and has a low base ISO.

Make the 5DsR II with the 80D base ISO (or lower) and give it an articulating display, then I wouldn't be looking to mod the 80D. But, we aren't there yet ... and I'm not holding my breath (any longer) to see an articulating display in the 5D series. There's a faint hope that the 6D II (consumer market, etc.) may be a FF with articulating display, but there also, I'd be looking for a 6DR version to supplant my SLR/C experience.

Naked AA shooting isn't for everyone ... but, I find it to be fitting to me.

charlyw wrote:
Because all the removal of the AA filter does is to create false colors around edges which basically are digital sampling artifacts, not sharpness...


Imo, that's an incomplete assessment of the difference (presenting only one side of the potential issues).
In essence it's an attempt to reduce a complex issue to a single conclusion via selective omission / presentation.

Bouncing your light (projected image) around a (pseudo) mesh screen incurs a contrast reduction (vector forces & cousin to physics of diffraction @ light path alteration) which then warrants an attempt to offset the contrast reduction by PP enhancements (USM, etc.), This is then a different form of inducing artifacts in an attempt to regain the lost contrast / acutance caused by the AA interference to the projected image.

Essentially it comes down to a matter of choose your poison(s) @ desired risk / reward acceptance.




Oct 14, 2016 at 10:27 AM
malgegg
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...




RustyBug wrote:
I just spoke with Canon about modifying my 80D, but they said "No can do."
I cant believe that canon dont do a camera in cropped format with no aa filter.like if your photographing items eg:sports,wildlife who cares about moire

I would have been good with either:

AA removal, or

5DsR type AA

Unfortunately, they said I'd have to go out to 3rd Party (pretty sure I know who the next call goes to) to have the mod done. Just passing along in case someone else might have been thinking the same.

Also, I asked about 6D II with articulating display in FF ...
...Show more



Oct 15, 2016 at 07:33 AM
EB-1
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...


What is the cost and typical turnaround time for the 80D?

EBH



Oct 15, 2016 at 05:17 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...


EB-1 wrote:
What is the cost and typical turnaround time for the 80D?

EBH


Looks like around $450 and 1-2 weeks, but I haven't confirmed that regarding the 80D yet.

http://www.maxmax.com/maincamerapage/chronoform



Oct 16, 2016 at 12:14 AM
AJSJones
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...


RustyBug wrote:
Bouncing your light (projected image) around a (pseudo) mesh screen incurs a contrast reduction (vector forces & cousin to physics of diffraction @ light path alteration) which then warrants an attempt to offset the contrast reduction by PP enhancements (USM, etc.),


Where on earth did this wildly inaccurate description come from?

The AA filter works in two stages 1) it makes a *sharp* copy of the image and displaces it almost a pixel in one direction - IT DOES NOT BLUR IT. It's like sharp double vision. Then 2) it does the same in the other direction so there are 4 sharp images dislaced to the corners of a square about 1 pixel by one pixel (in the D800e the square seems to be about 0.8 of a pixel), Thus the "deconvolution matrix" is quite accurate because the PSF point spread function is known (the pixel dimension slider in the deconvolution sharpeners are based on that). I like my 5DsR but have no illusions about how much better it is thatn the 5Ds - detectable but not a lot



Oct 16, 2016 at 01:10 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...


Yes, the "pseudo" screen was pretty loose.
Still, the light is split & refracted (i.e. bounced around / moved) from it's original path.

The fact remains that whether you are talking about a blurred image, or a double vision (which is often referred to as blurred vision), there still remains a requirement to use the PP to attempt to regain the optical energy that was displaced and reassemble it into a unified quantity ... to exactly realign the various wavelengths. Imo, it is better to simply let the light reach the imaging element without splitting and redirecting it.

Theoretically however, vector quantities that are realigned will restore the sum of their forces (inherent inefficiencies notwithstanding). As such, the concept of the offset / realign method in the 5DsR / D810 does have merit.

As to the amount of diff made by the AA filter vs. non-AA filter, some report in the range of 15-30%, I'm of the opinion it is closer to 15-20% depending on the strength of the AA filter being used ... which probably corresponds to your point @ .8 pixel (although I haven't done the math).


Edited on Oct 16, 2016 at 01:31 AM · View previous versions



Oct 16, 2016 at 01:21 AM
AJSJones
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · No AA mod for the 80D from Canon ...


RustyBug wrote:
Yes, the "pseudo" screen was pretty loose.
Still, the light is split & refracted (i.e. bounced around / moved) from it's original path.

The fact remains that whether you are talking about a blurred image, or a double vision, there still remains a requirement to use the PP to attempt to regain the optical energy that was displaced and reassemble it into a unified quantity ... to exactly realign the various wavelengths. Imo, it is better to simply let the light reach the imaging element without redirecting / splitting it.

As to the amount, some report in the range of
...Show more

By the time you are at the dimensions of the AA filter and the displacement of each image, the wavelength issue is moot. And don't lenses refract and bounce the image anyway? I do not begrudge you your favouring "non-AA images" but I think much of that is generated by "It must be better" more than "It actually is better"



Oct 16, 2016 at 01:29 AM
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