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Archive 2016 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.
  
 
prashant
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.


Any experience? Is it because it is expensive and hence not popular or not value for money?


Oct 09, 2016 at 10:51 AM
Luvwine
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.


There are many posts on this. Search function is your friend. Many here use Leica M and R glass on Sony A7/r cameras. Wide angle can be problematic though Leica WATE, 28 Summilux and others work very well. All telephoto lenses work well. Autofocus can be achieved with the Techart adapter (see the Techart threads). Enjoy your reading!

Edited on Oct 10, 2016 at 03:32 PM · View previous versions



Oct 09, 2016 at 01:25 PM
retrofocus
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.


Luvwine wrote:
There are many posts on this. Search function is your friend. Many hear use Leica M and R glass on Sony A7/r cameras. Wide angle can be problematic though Leica WATE, 28 Summilux and others work very well. All telephoto lenses work well. Autofocus can be achieved with the Techart adapter (see the Techart threads). Enjoy your reading!


Sums it up well. There are some good post processing work-arounds when using M-mount wide angle rangefinder lenses on A7 series cameras. 35 mm M-mount Leica lenses can work well or are horrible performers on an A7 series camera - stay away from the latest ASPH lens version (its predecessor, the version IV 35/2 Summicron works perfectly here). No issues with M lenses from 50 mm onwards in focal length.

I am predominately using my A7R with Leica and Voigtlander M lenses.



Oct 10, 2016 at 01:50 PM
Luvwine
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.


retrofocus wrote:
Sums it up well. There are some good post processing work-arounds when using M-mount wide angle rangefinder lenses on A7 series cameras. 35 mm M-mount Leica lenses can work well or are horrible performers on an A7 series camera - stay away from the latest ASPH lens version (its predecessor, the version IV 35/2 Summicron works perfectly here). No issues with M lenses from 50 mm onwards in focal length.

I am predominately using my A7R with Leica and Voigtlander M lenses.


Thx Retro. Another link worth studying for wide angle Leica on Sony is this from Lens Rentals:

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/07/guide-to-leica-wide-angle-lenses-on-sony-a7-series-bodies/



Oct 10, 2016 at 03:35 PM
uhoh7
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.


I don't know how the Fuji cameras shoot leica lenses, the Sonys have a thick cover over the sensor which effects the wider light path and hence the performance of many M lenses, including the ASPH 50/1.4 which is terrible on the Sonys. 35 and wider, it's just a question of "how bad is it?"

You can have the sensor modified to shoot these lenses nearly as well as a Leica M body for about 400USD at Kolari.



Oct 10, 2016 at 04:40 PM
retrofocus
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.


Luvwine wrote:
Thx Retro. Another link worth studying for wide angle Leica on Sony is this from Lens Rentals:

https://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2016/07/guide-to-leica-wide-angle-lenses-on-sony-a7-series-bodies/


I have some reservation regarding reviews and articles from this website in general because not all brands seem to be always treated equally. Nevertheless, taken with a grain of salt, it can still give a good indication of a trend or direction. I certainly found the articles about sensor glass thickness comparison one of the most useful.



Oct 10, 2016 at 05:40 PM
Luvwine
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.


uhoh7 wrote:
I don't know how the Fuji cameras shoot leica lenses, the Sonys have a thick cover over the sensor which effects the wider light path and hence the performance of many M lenses, including the ASPH 50/1.4 which is terrible on the Sonys. 35 and wider, it's just a question of "how bad is it?"

You can have the sensor modified to shoot these lenses nearly as well as a Leica M body for about 400USD at Kolari.


I think you are overly negative on the performance of certain M wide angles on the Sony bodies. The lens rentals test I referenced above compares the output of M wides on an unmodified A7r2 versus a Leica M body at wide open and at F8 both in the corners and in the center. In a fair number of cases at F8, the Sony results are obviously superior to the Leica M body results both in the center and in the corner and in a few cases the wide open results are superior as well in the center and about even in the corner. Part of this is likely the inherent advantage the Sony sensor gives comparing 42 to 24 megapixels. Undoubtedly, the Kolari mod would greatly help some of the results though at the expense of slight degradation of native glass and some issues of color profiling. However, my point is that one can achieve excellent results with Leica M wide glass on an unmodified A7r2 if one is selective about which lenses one uses. I have personally had good results with the WATE and 28 Summilux. The 21 Summilux and 28mm 2.8 version II are also referenced as being "good enough" on an unmodified body. The rest of the 28mm and wider lenses are not likely worth using on an unmodified Sony except stopped way down.


Edited on Oct 11, 2016 at 02:04 PM · View previous versions



Oct 10, 2016 at 08:15 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.


In my own testing of 20-25 RF lenses at infinity focus distance on a variety of Sony a7 flavors, including some on the latest a7RII, I can't recall many instances where wider RF lenses (generally 35mm and wider) performed better on the Sonys. The CV 35/1.2 II is probably one, and the CV40/1.4 (and very likely it's sister lens, the 35/1.4) too, though the latter is not necessarily a technical tour de force compared to some other options.

Yes, there are many RF lenses that benefit centrally from the additional resolution offered by the a7R and a7RII, even when resized to M equivalent 18/24MP, particularly in respect to minimizing aliasing, but very few that IMO were equal or better in the outer 1/3 frame in the technically demanding infinity focus scenario. If you're shooting a lot at wider apertures and nearer subject distances where edge performance possibly isn't relevant, than a lot of lenses will be OK that are otherwise problematic for technically demanding applications.

Maybe a reason this isn't discussed much currently is because there are finally a decent number of FE native lens options and the Fuji lens line-up is quite extensive. But even a few years ago there wasn't much discussion about Fuji... perhaps because most who want to shoot RF lenses on mirrorless want to do so utilizing the lens's full native image circle, rather than a crop of it? From what I recall, the Fuji sensors also have fairly thick sensor stacks that even at APS-C size, result in some image quality reduction.

My recent a7RII infinity test included the 28 Lux and it clearly underperforms at the edges compared to M240 results. It's probably fine for near distances and any work where edge performance is not critical. The 50 Lux ASPH also underperforms technically at infinity distances on the stock Sony sensors compared to Leica. Again, in other applications it is likely just fine...



Oct 11, 2016 at 12:52 AM
Luvwine
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.


rscheffler wrote:
In my own testing of 20-25 RF lenses at infinity focus distance on a variety of Sony a7 flavors, including some on the latest a7RII, I can't recall many instances where wider RF lenses (generally 35mm and wider) performed better on the Sonys. The CV 35/1.2 II is probably one, and the CV40/1.4 (and very likely it's sister lens, the 35/1.4) too, though the latter is not necessarily a technical tour de force compared to some other options.

Yes, there are many RF lenses that benefit centrally from the additional resolution offered by the a7R and a7RII, even when resized
...Show more

Ron,

I cannot compare the lenses personally on both bodies since I don't own a Leica body. I would be interested in seeing your testing comparing the Lux 28 on a M body to the results on an A7r2 body. I am basing any comparison to the Lens Rentals tests which, admittedly done at short range, seem to have a very good showing for the Lux 28 on an A7r2 once normalized for the size of output. Perhaps your testing can motivate me to buy a second body and try a Kolari Mod.....

At 35mm, I have used the CV 35/1.2 and I found it really good once stopped down, however, I preferred the ZM 35/1.4 to it--particularly at close range (equal at infinity stopped down) and also to the native Zony 35/2.8, which while I still own, is less exciting to me.

Again regarding 28mm Lux, I have been using it on A7r2 and like it quite a bit so far. It is a better performer to me at short range than the CV 35/1.2 was and have had some success with landscapes as well, though having owned it only for a couple of weeks, I cannot say I have a lot of experience yet. I have done some low light shots of people and food and liked the results but that is hardly demanding of corner or edge performance Here is one shot with a 28 Lux that is fairly typical of how I might use the lens for landscape:



Now here are a couple of 100% crops from that image. I suspect they were at about F8. These are processed with my usual sharpening of 48/.7/25, posted here at 80% quality jpegs and NOT sharpened for screen on output (I can upload unprocessed crops if you like) but I think demonstrate that the output is good enough for making large prints. I know the MTF's of the lens reveal some less than ideal performance in the corners (astigmatism) and that is for Leica bodies, so I was worried that it might suck on an A7r2, but I am not seeing that in anything perhaps other than the extreme corner so far. Thoughts? Would this image be more successful on an M body? if this image were downsized to 24 megapixels, would the M body make a better image?

Right edge crop:



Lower right corner crop



Edited on Oct 11, 2016 at 02:59 AM · View previous versions



Oct 11, 2016 at 02:20 AM
Luvwine
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.


Another example:



Upper left corner:



I am not seeing any of the smearing or extreme loss of detail that I noticed even when I owned the 50 lux on an A7r, but perhaps it would be a lot better on an M body?




Oct 11, 2016 at 02:57 AM
 

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retrofocus
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.


A lot of the reported smearing/corner unsharpness can be also caused by other factors than just the lens-sensor glass combination. The high resolution FF sensors in general are more tricky to get very sharp corner photos with them especially when not used on a tripod. Aperture and exposure time play a crucial role here. 22 MP FF sensors are much more forgiving compared to 36 or higher MP sensors.

Easier to tell is the amount of vignetting and color cast deriving from ultra-wide rangefinder lenses on A7 sensor based cameras. The CV 12/5.6 is a good example here. This lens does not give me any issue on my Leica M film cameras (only slight vignetting wide open at f/5.6) but certainly on my A7R where I need to apply the DNG Flat Field Plugin in LR or PS with external calibration to remove color cast and vignetting issues. The new E-mount based CV ultra-wide lenses avoid this issue from what I read here in this forum.




Oct 11, 2016 at 11:31 AM
Steve Spencer
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.


rscheffler wrote:
In my own testing of 20-25 RF lenses at infinity focus distance on a variety of Sony a7 flavors, including some on the latest a7RII, I can't recall many instances where wider RF lenses (generally 35mm and wider) performed better on the Sonys. The CV 35/1.2 II is probably one, and the CV40/1.4 (and very likely it's sister lens, the 35/1.4) too, though the latter is not necessarily a technical tour de force compared to some other options.

Yes, there are many RF lenses that benefit centrally from the additional resolution offered by the a7R and a7RII, even when resized
...Show more

Ron, can you tell us a bit more about your 28 Lux infinity test? Did you focus toward the edge or in the centre? I have the lens and will soon test it versus the Otus 28 and it would be great to know where best to focus stopped down for infinity. I have to say that so far I am very impressed by this lens for closeup work and I was pleasantly surprised by how much I like the bokeh. The sharpness is there as you would expect as well. That said, I think comparing it to the Otus will show some its weaknesses, but we will see. The difference is size between the lenses is startling.



Oct 11, 2016 at 12:19 PM
prashant
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.


Also has anyone tested 35mm cron on A7x? I'm interested in 35/90. Have found a couple of 90mm reviews but no comparison. Thanks


Oct 11, 2016 at 01:27 PM
gyoung143
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.


prashant wrote:
Also has anyone tested 35mm cron on A7x? I'm interested in 35/90. Have found a couple of 90mm reviews but no comparison. Thanks


35 Summicron asph is not good even on the A7, too much curvature of field, impossible to get sharp across the frame at a distance. My v1 8 element Summicron 35 is better but as it has M3 goggles its not really practical on the A7. Other people report that pre asheric Summicron 35s are mostly better than the aaspheric. Voigtlander 35/2.5 is also too poor for serious use in my experience. The search for a good 35 for the Sonys is like the holy grail!!
At 90 mm most should be good, I have Elmarit 2.8, original version with detachable lens head, and its very good, as good as on film. Also the 75mm Heliar f/2.5 is excellent. Both are better at 2.8 than my Nikkor 85/1.8 AF.
All on a stock A7.

Gerry




Oct 11, 2016 at 01:58 PM
Luvwine
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.


Steve Spencer wrote:
Ron, can you tell us a bit more about your 28 Lux infinity test? Did you focus toward the edge or in the centre? I have the lens and will soon test it versus the Otus 28 and it would be great to know where best to focus stopped down for infinity. I have to say that so far I am very impressed by this lens for closeup work and I was pleasantly surprised by how much I like the bokeh. The sharpness is there as you would expect as well. That said, I think comparing it to the
...Show more

Steve,

I too thought about the Otus and have no doubt it is the better optic. However, I am not sure how much better and whether its character would be as pleasing. When I saw it has a 95mm filter thread and weighs 3 pounds compared to the Leica's 49mm filter thread and 1 pound, I bought the Leica. Nevertheless, I will be interested in seeing your thoughts in the comparison.


Edited on Oct 11, 2016 at 03:55 PM · View previous versions



Oct 11, 2016 at 02:00 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.


Steve, I only did a quick test by setting focus at the centre of the frame, therefore I can't say by how much, if any, it improves by focusing instead at a point closer to the edge. I guess my thinking is it's a compromise solution, but from what others say with other lenses, it seems to work.

Weaknesses of the 28 Lux include fairly strong CA (both 'regular' and 'bokeh' CA) and likelihood to flare in some situations. So far I haven't found those to be deal breakers. I was a bit disappointed by the degree of 'regular' CA because in some images it won't clean up perfectly in post (leaving a slightly ghostly halo in certain types of transitions), but compared to other Leica M Luxes I own and/or have used, it has fewer IQ compromises. For example, it doesn't have much, if any noticeable, mid-zone sharpness dip and is one of the sharpest Luxes I've used wide open. At first I was a bit apprehensive about replacing my Cron v1 with it, but the Lux adds better low light capability without seemingly giving up much for stopped down shooting in my 'real world' applications... I'd guess the Otus is technically better, but for me it's not even a consideration due to its size and weight.

Stephen, I'll see if I can put the a7RII & 28 Lux images somewhere for you guys to access... in the meantime, I only tested it for infinity and as noted above to Steve, focus was at the center of the frame, which might not be an ideal solution for the Sony cameras. Looking at those images just now, at f/8 it's good on Sony and I can't see a difference from the M240 at the same aperture. At f/5.6 there is slight but noticeable edge smearing.



Oct 11, 2016 at 02:01 PM
rscheffler
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.


Here's the infinity series of a7RII and 28 Lux. As noted earlier, focus was set for the center of the frame without trying to optimize the focus for best across-frame performance. It was to get an idea of worst case edge performance (as opposed to corners, otherwise I would have tilted the camera.

It would be interesting to see how much performance improves with the PCX correction lens 'filter' discussed in another thread, which would avoid having to go the Kolari route.



Oct 11, 2016 at 04:02 PM
Steve Spencer
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.


rscheffler wrote:
Here's the infinity series of a7RII and 28 Lux. As noted earlier, focus was set for the center of the frame without trying to optimize the focus for best across-frame performance. It was to get an idea of worst case edge performance (as opposed to corners, otherwise I would have tilted the camera.

It would be interesting to see how much performance improves with the PCX correction lens 'filter' discussed in another thread, which would avoid having to go the Kolari route.


Thanks Ron, even focussing in the centre sharpness looks pretty good by f/5.6 and very good by f/8 at the far edge. So, that is about what I would have expected. A pretty similar performance to the Zeiss ZM 35 f/1.4, I think. I can work with that. I see what you mean about the lateral CA, however, it definitely could be better, and unfortunately that is one aberration that does not improve when you stop down. Out of curiosity, what adapter did you use? I also hope this lens isn't too sensitive to the adapter, but as it has a floating element it may be. I have a Hawk's adapter that I can fine tune for infinity, but I would rather not have to fiddle with it in that way.



Oct 11, 2016 at 05:45 PM
retrofocus
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.


prashant wrote:
Also has anyone tested 35mm cron on A7x? I'm interested in 35/90. Have found a couple of 90mm reviews but no comparison. Thanks


I am using the 35/2 non-ASPH very successfully on my A7R. As mentioned above, stay away from the newest 35/2 ASPH version. I got a very good used 35/2 version 4 lens (nick-named bokeh king even the bokeh for Summicron lenses in general is not ideal either). This lens works extremely well both on my A7R and my Leica M cameras.

Alternative option on an A7 series camera is the CV 35/1.2 II lens - my preferred 35 mm lens in dim light or in the dark. Beautiful bokeh (much better than the Leica 35/2 obviously), just more heavy and more bulky but still fine on a mirrorless or M series camera.

Regarding 90 mm, I chose the Elmarit version instead of the 90/2. I bought for a steal a well maintained used 90/2.8 version I M lens. It is razor sharp, fairly light weight, and delivers outstanding photos - all I need.



Oct 11, 2016 at 07:02 PM
ZhanMing12
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Leica M Glass on Sony A7/Fuji etc.


I use a number of current M lenses with modified and unmodified A7rII cameras. The only lens I own that significantly benefits from the Kolari Mod is the 35mm F1.4 FLE (used to own a 15mm Distagon ZM which really could use the mod). The 21mm F1.4 is completely okay. The Noctilux is fine although really not the best performer in the corners - I would say only the center 1/3rd is acceptable for the 7rII at F0.95.

The 50mm F2 APO is fine. Nothing upwards of 75mm has been problematic in my experience.

for wides I'd stay with F1.4 ASPH lenses or the WATE. Alternatively the Voigtlander Ultron works well.



Oct 11, 2016 at 07:12 PM
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