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Archive 2016 · Dumb question about using ICC profiles
  
 
pixlepeeper
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Dumb question about using ICC profiles


So I calibrate my monitor using a Color Munki. Then I get an ICC profile from Bayphoto. How can I use these two profiles together? I have a Mac and use Capture One Pro, Nik collection and GIMP.


Oct 05, 2016 at 01:54 PM
walts.photo
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Dumb question about using ICC profiles


In Capture One you should be able to enter either ICC profile in Color, Base Characteristics, ICC Profile.

I'm not sure how to do a quick compare, other than to create a variant and look at them side by side.



Oct 05, 2016 at 03:15 PM
dmcphoto
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Dumb question about using ICC profiles


The ICC profile generated by Color Munki is for your monitor. The one from Bay Photo would be for their use in printing, and for your use to soft-proof your print before you send the file to them. Photoshop has a soft proofing capability that allows you to select the profile of your output device to accurately preview (soft-proof) the print (on your monitor, still via the monitor's profile) before actually printing it. I don't know if GIMP has that capability. You can't just substitute the output profile for that of the monitor to do this.

Edited for clarity.



Oct 05, 2016 at 03:16 PM
pixlepeeper
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Dumb question about using ICC profiles


OK, I see.


Oct 06, 2016 at 11:31 AM
walts.photo
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Dumb question about using ICC profiles


Just a fyi. My pictures need a lot of editing when I switch the ICC profile from my (calibrated) monitor to the printer profile. I have to add more "pop", usually contrast and saturation, just to make them look like the monitor profile. So, I end up with two variants (or virtual copies as they are called in Lightroom) one variant for the monitor and one variant for the printer. Thankfully, I don't have to make a 3rd variant for sRGB for web pictures, since AdobeRGB is close enough for most of my shots.


Oct 06, 2016 at 03:44 PM
dmcphoto
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Dumb question about using ICC profiles


walts.photo wrote:
Just a fyi. My pictures need a lot of editing when I switch the ICC profile from my (calibrated) monitor to the printer profile. I have to add more "pop", usually contrast and saturation, just to make them look like the monitor profile. So, I end up with two variants (or virtual copies as they are called in Lightroom) one variant for the monitor and one variant for the printer. Thankfully, I don't have to make a 3rd variant for sRGB for web pictures, since AdobeRGB is close enough for most of my shots.


You'll find that depends a LOT on what paper you're using. Mat papers soft proof very differently, but with glossier papers like Ilford GFS the soft proof does not look much different than the normal monitor display.



Oct 06, 2016 at 04:57 PM
walts.photo
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Dumb question about using ICC profiles


Yep, my experience too. Glossy needs a little bit of touch-up with all the sliders but mat paper requires larger changes. I suppose a computer monitor is kinda glossy, after-all.


Oct 06, 2016 at 08:07 PM
BobCollette
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Dumb question about using ICC profiles


Matte papers generally have a significantly lower Dmax than do glossy papers. That's the primary reason why they profile and look so different.


Oct 06, 2016 at 10:30 PM
 

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walts.photo
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Dumb question about using ICC profiles


Aha, a new term I have to investigate. Dmax. Seems counterintuitive that DMAX, which is blackest black, should be higher on glossy. Wouldn't glossy make black seem brighter?


Oct 07, 2016 at 02:05 AM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Dumb question about using ICC profiles


Having measured hundreds of different papers making custom profiles for a variety of printers, one of the first things I look at out of curiosity are the measurements of the d-max. The paper and the inkset, which you're dealing with inkjet prints combine together to define the blackest black that can be printed. I'm still using a Spectrolino Spectroscan, a fairly high quality instrument. The measurements the spectrophotometers record are generally L*a*b coordinates. The "L" component is the lightness while the "a" is magenta to green and the "b" is yellow to blue. (if you see a familiar similarity to the white balance controls on your raw converter, you're right)

On the glossy or semi-gloss photo papers that use photo black ink, the "L" measurement on an Epson 9900 is typically around 4-5. With matte papers, that same "L" value is more like 16-20. This is on a scale from 0-100 - pure black to pure white. On the previous Epson 9800 I used to use, the photo black L readings were a few clicks higher - usually L 7-9. That's a difference you can actually see in side by side prints - not huge, but barely visible.

You might come to the conclusion that you could use the "wrong" black in on matte papers, and get a blacker black, but it doesn't work that way. Photo black ink on matte paper actually results in a lighter maximum black than with matte black ink. And if you try and use matte black ink on a photo black paper, the ink just sort of sits on top of the paper with a distinct gloss differential - or varying degrees of reflectivity when you view the ink at an oblique angle.




Oct 07, 2016 at 04:51 AM
walts.photo
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Dumb question about using ICC profiles


That explains why my photos for matte paper have a lot more contrast (blacker blacks), when viewed with the monitor profile. The blacks need to be much blacker to look normal on a matte paper.

For glossy paper, my photos seem to need a lot less white (when viewed with the monitor profile).



Oct 07, 2016 at 09:33 PM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Dumb question about using ICC profiles


I'm not sure what you mean by "viewed with the monitor profile." EVERY image you view on screen is with the monitor profile. If you want to see a simulation of the less intense black of a matte paper, you need to use the soft proofing function and check the simulate black ink box, but be aware that this will often result in an on screen black that is actually lighter than the print.

The quality of your monitor, its calibration and profile, along with the quality and accuracy of the printer profiles are all factors to consider when trying to assess how well your monitor predicts your prints. Not to mention ambient light in your edit bay and the quality and nature of the light you use to view your prints.



Oct 07, 2016 at 09:51 PM
walts.photo
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Dumb question about using ICC profiles


When I say monitor profile I mean ICC profile of a calibrated monitor. The printer/paper combination has an ICC profile. sRGB has a profile.

To see what an image would look like when printed, I select the profile for the printer/paper. In Lightroom it is called "soft proofing". In C1, it's just the ICC profile you select for a variant.



Oct 07, 2016 at 10:04 PM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Dumb question about using ICC profiles


Yes, but monitor profiles are automatically picked up by the system whether it's a Mac or PC, so there's never any reason (almost never) to actually do anything with the monitor profile. sRGB doesn't "have" a profile, it IS a profile.

Okay, I can now see that you're using soft proofing in Lr to simulate the print on screen. There is a similar function in Capture One, but there's really no reason to ever use it unless you're actually printing from Capture One, which is probably not the best application for printing. And C1 doesn't have all the different rendering intent options in the soft proofing that Ps does which is another reason to not use it there. But do, of course use it to process your raw files, where it's almost always much better than either of the Adobe options and far better than the manufacturer's own converters.



Oct 07, 2016 at 11:04 PM
pixlepeeper
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Dumb question about using ICC profiles


@Peter, how can I soft proof my pictures then? Don't have Lr.

@walts.photo I get a message saying "No profile imported" when I choose the "import" in ICC menu.



Oct 23, 2016 at 12:24 AM
walts.photo
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Dumb question about using ICC profiles


Capture One doesn't make it easy. How do you import .icc profiles? On a Windows box, I put some .icc and .icm files into the users/user/AppData/Local/CaptureOne/Color Profiles and the import dialog gives me the same message, "No profiles were imported"


Oct 25, 2016 at 08:50 PM







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