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Archive 2016 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing

  
 
Fred Miranda
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p.74 #1 · p.74 #1 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


DavidBM wrote:
---------------------------------------------

Please do! If it does turn out to be fixable it'd be an inexpensive stop gap 10 blader before Loxia (I doubt it'll challenge the ZF as reigning resolution champ though..)


The main comparison will be against the ZF 28. I really like it but it's 600 grams.
The ZM 28 could not compete with it even with the PCX 1.5m.



Mar 25, 2017 at 03:29 PM
GMPhotography
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p.74 #2 · p.74 #2 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


I might just send my ZM 25 along with the PCx 2500. See how they compare


Mar 25, 2017 at 04:12 PM
GMPhotography
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p.74 #3 · p.74 #3 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


ZM 25mm updates

So setup for the PCX 2500… Little tougher here but its the best way 46-55 step up. Put a 55mm blank in than drop in the 2500. It may have a little play but than you can drop in a el pro 3

You could use tape but rubber gasket will not work. The reason is the 55mm blank needs to go into the 46-55 all the way for the El Pro to actually sit on top of the glass. The rubber gasket will not let you get one in and fit down all the way. I do have some rubber gaskets coming from China that may work . I do question it

Brands 46-55 fotodiox
55mm tiffen 55mm uv.
than i have a thin blank 55mm that looks to not vignette with the 25



Mar 27, 2017 at 12:02 PM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.74 #4 · p.74 #4 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


I haven't figure out how to use simulated optimal SLB-50-3000PM with ZM18 without causing vignetting. I think 50mm is just too small diameter, and at least OptoSigma doesn't sell >1000mm Plano-Convex lenses on 60mm or larger size. So I decided to try how it works with Hoya HMC +1 58mm close-up filter. And it seems it works fairly well, only very outer corner is not great. I assume this is also issue even using the lens with film; on MTF the sagittal detail does sudden drop in outer corner. I haven't tested yet this combo in boke photos, but for landscapes this combo works for me.


Hoya HMC +1 58mm lens does vignette. As I have no other use for 58mm +1 diopter lens, I had no hard feelings just to file off the parts causing vignetting:

(while doing this I accidentally scratched middle of the lens -> need to order new and be little bit more careful with the file next time...)



Here are few samples from tonight, first f/4 wide open using flat field plugin to correct color AND vignetting, camera A7r, like in all samples:

For comparison here links to two different versions: f/4 flat field plugin only used to fix color and f/11 flat field plugin only to fix color. I would say this lens needs vignetting correction to shine, unless your composition allows extreme vignetting.

f/11, flat field plugin only for color


f/11, flat field plugin only for color



EDIT: If you want to fiddle with the ARW-files, let me know and I'll upload the ARW-files.

Samuli



Mar 28, 2017 at 04:48 PM
HaruhikoT
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p.74 #5 · p.74 #5 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


Hi Samuli,

Thank you for posting those reports and nice nightscape images.

To check your concern, I referred zeiss datasheet and calculated theoretical limitation of the PCX diameter with OSLO.

When SLB-50-3000PM is placed 0mm in front of the ZM18's first lens vertex, in normal orientation and perfectly centered:

Minimum PCX diameter to avoid Mechanical Vignetting = 45.0mm

Minimum PCX diameter to avoid Optical Vignetting = 49.6mm.

That means, when the diameter is more than 49.6mm, the PCX doesn't cause any vignetting.
And when the diameter is between 45 and 49.5mm, corner light loss will be heavier than without PCX but still not completely dark.

So I think that Optosigma's PCX having 50mm diameter should be usable for ZM18 if you can make optimal casing for it.
Blank 58mm filter and a custom made retention ring that holds the PCX without vignetting should be required.
Maybe 3D printer helps to make the ring but I'm not sure about 3D modeling and printing.



Mar 28, 2017 at 10:05 PM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.74 #6 · p.74 #6 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


HaruhikoT wrote:
So I think that Optosigma's PCX having 50mm diameter should be usable for ZM18 if you can make optimal casing for it.
Blank 58mm filter and a custom made retention ring that holds the PCX without vignetting should be required.
Maybe 3D printer helps to make the ring but I'm not sure about 3D modeling and printing.

Hi Haruhiko, yes the lens itself is OK, but in princible one would need to get the PCX-lens ~1.1mm off from lens front plate (front lens element goes further than front plate) and then hold it in place with retention ring inner diameter of 49.95mm (largest I'm able to hold OptoSigma lenses in place firmly) and have no thickness on the retention ring. Even any fraction of millimeter is critical on thickness due to very wide angle.

Therefore in order to hold OptoSigma lens in place one would need to create some kind of device which has outer thread same as 58mm filters, and somehow holds the lens in place by holding it from top, bottom, left and right but not from corners. This would be possible with 3D printing the "OptoSigma holder" from metal (because of the thread). Alternatively this kind of "OptoSigma holder" could be made from plastic and clued to inside of 58mm filter, and then just file off metal from the filter to avoid adding any vignetting from the filter frame.


I have also tried 58-67mm -> Hoya 67mm +1 and it also would need filing due to hard vignetting in corners. Due to positioning of the lens further away from front lens the corners are somewhat worse than they are with Hoya 58mm +1 filter.



PS. With this lens even adding normal 58mm filter generates more darkening to corners. As can be seen from lens PDF sheet the corners are at f/8 <40% illumination on film, which can take light at any angle. Digital sensors don't produce same amount of lightness when light hits extreme angle to CFA compared to same amount of light coming in to CFA without angle ---> any added vignetting, optical or mechanical is troublesome for this lens. After all we are miss-using lens designed for film cameras by trying to use them with digital cameras. If one simply wishes to get good 18mm I would recommend to try their luck in Batis quality control lottery, much more easier option.

Personally I love rendering style of ZM18 - I don't even need 18mm lens, it's way too wide for any real photography in Finland, but I love the rendering style and challenge of getting this lens to work. Maybe one day I learn to use ultra wide lens in a way wide FOV is adding value to photo, not the opposite. Thou I don't see it happening very soon, as 99% of ultra wide photos I see here and other places, taken by very talented photographers fail due to unnatural FOV and simply would be better if shoot 25-35mm range. Really great ultra wide photos I remember are uhoh7 ZM18 photos (reason why I wanted to get ZM18, real good demonstration of this lens rendering style) and one German guy architecture photos (sorry don't remember the name) where he shoot upwards stairways etc. architectural features - I don't have mountains like uhoh7 or don't shoot architecture...maybe one day I figure proper usage for the lens in my photography

Samuli



Mar 29, 2017 at 12:31 AM
artur5
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p.74 #7 · p.74 #7 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


You could have spared that drastic surgery on your Hoya HMC+1 simply relocating the glass to a blank 58mm. filter. If your Hoya is like mine, it has a retaining clip on the inner side, that you remove easily with a sharp pointed tool. Placing the HMC+1 glass in a thin flanged 58mm. blank is equally easy.
I measured the flange of my Hoya HMC +1. It’s 7.2mm. past the thread. Instead, a regular Hoya filter (a diffuser, in this case) is only 4.5mm. and shouldn’t vignette at all.
On a side note, if a +1 diopter (=1m) close up works quite well with the ZM18, then the PCX3000 should be too weak and vice versa, if the PCX3000 is the correct one, a +1 close up is definitively too strong for this lens.



Mar 29, 2017 at 03:21 AM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.74 #8 · p.74 #8 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


artur5 wrote:
You could have spared that drastic surgery on your Hoya HMC+1 simply relocating the glass to a blank 58mm. filter. If your Hoya is like mine, it has a retaining clip on the inner side, that you remove easily with a sharp pointed tool. Placing the HMC+1 glass in a thin flanged 58mm. blank is equally easy.
I measured the flange of my Hoya HMC +1. It’s 7.2mm. past the thread. Instead, a regular Hoya filter (a diffuser, in this case) is only 4.5mm. and shouldn’t vignette at all.

I'll have to test this kind of method - I have about 15pcs 55mm filters and ~6pcs 52mm filters for testing this front filter method and finding correct size retention rings. Naturally I have 0pcs 58mm filters as I never use any filter except polarizer and ND, and won't break them for this.

artur5 wrote:
On a side note, if a +1 diopter (=1m) close up works quite well with the ZM18, then the PCX3000 should be too weak and vice versa, if the PCX3000 is the correct one, a +1 close up is definitively too strong for this lens.

This was my original assumption as well. However it seems that Plano-Convex lenses don't affect the same way to field curvature and astigmatism like the meniscus lens like Hoya +1 or Zeiss Proxar 1m. Also ZM25 it was similar: Hoya +1 or 1m Proxar works "OK" while PCX2500 is optimal, and PCX3000 works really well. I don't have any theory or simulation confirming this, but this seems to be the situation based on testing, also Guy had similar results with +1/1m meniscus and 2500mm PCX.

Samuli




Mar 29, 2017 at 05:12 AM
GMPhotography
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p.74 #9 · p.74 #9 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


Don't have a lot of time to post the results so Ill give everyone the raws. But I bought another ZM 25 as i was feeling something was wrong and I hit pay dirt now. With the ZM 25mm with the PCX 2500 in reverse its a perfect match. I mean deadly good at 5.6 across the board and thats being very picky , its even really good at F4. Here are the Raws 2.8-11 on both Big Bronco and Infinity. Im in Zeiss heaven again and Im done with all this but now I have excellent across the board ZM 25 and ZM 35. Im back to being thrilled. If you want to post anything please do. Im just packing and such for a road trip

https://www.hightail.com/download/dDZIRFFVMVhVbS9WUThUQw



Apr 01, 2017 at 12:12 PM
thrice
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p.74 #10 · p.74 #10 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


GMPhotography wrote:
Don't have a lot of time to post the results so Ill give everyone the raws. But I bought another ZM 25 as i was feeling something was wrong and I hit pay dirt now. With the ZM 25mm with the PCX 2500 in reverse its a perfect match. I mean deadly good at 5.6 across the board and thats being very picky , its even really good at F4. Here are the Raws 2.8-11 on both Big Bronco and Infinity. Im in Zeiss heaven again and Im done with all this but now I have excellent across the board
...Show more

Fantastic! What was the ideal setup with the 35 ZM in the end Guy?



Apr 03, 2017 at 08:40 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.74 #11 · p.74 #11 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


thrice wrote:
Fantastic! What was the ideal setup with the 35 ZM in the end Guy?


Dan - is that you or did someone hack your account?!? If it's you - great to see you. Are you still shooting Leica?



Apr 03, 2017 at 10:28 PM
GMPhotography
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p.74 #12 · p.74 #12 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


For the ZM 35. 49-55 than PCX 5000 surrounded by thin rubber gasket 2mm than squeezed down with a blank 55 than a El Pro 3 retaining ring. Same for the ZM 25 with 46-55 PCX 2500 than 55 and El Pro 3 as well. Both lenses are reveresed.

The 35 I can use my hood just use a 49mm blank to start it off. ZM 25 I can use the standard hood . There is another hood that would fit it's for the 21. Now I solved this puzzle I may buy one



Apr 03, 2017 at 10:52 PM
thrice
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p.74 #13 · p.74 #13 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


Gary Clennan wrote:
Dan - is that you or did someone hack your account?!? If it's you - great to see you. Are you still shooting Leica?


Hi Gary! It's me, took a hiatus from the photo industry and delved into medium format for a couple of years.
I'm shooting Sony now but considering adding a Leica 75AA at some stage. How are you going?



Apr 04, 2017 at 01:40 AM
thrice
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p.74 #14 · p.74 #14 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


Thanks Guy! Useful info.
The summary at the start should be updated to reflect your hard earned solution.



Apr 04, 2017 at 01:42 AM
HaruhikoT
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p.74 #15 · p.74 #15 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


thrice wrote:
Thanks Guy! Useful info.
The summary at the start should be updated to reflect your hard earned solution.


Just added.



Apr 04, 2017 at 06:28 AM
Gary Clennan
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p.74 #16 · p.74 #16 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


thrice wrote:
Hi Gary! It's me, took a hiatus from the photo industry and delved into medium format for a couple of years.
I'm shooting Sony now but considering adding a Leica 75AA at some stage. How are you going?


Great to hear. I'm doing excellent - shooting a bit of Sony and Leica.... Take care.



Apr 04, 2017 at 09:14 AM
GMPhotography
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p.74 #17 · p.74 #17 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


Thank you I'm on the road shooting wind turbines. Internet is a little sketchy. I'm in the middle of nowhere.

I'm not kidding. Cow pies, mud, skunks. No mountians , 3 restaurants , 2 gas stations and 2 hotels. Population 2500 spread over 30 miles. This is not city life. I'm actually enjoying the peace and quiet.

I used every lens I own so far. Need a 50 though
HaruhikoT wrote:
Just added.




Apr 04, 2017 at 09:46 AM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.74 #18 · p.74 #18 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


I think I have solved the "supply problem of perfect 55mm retention ring". I ordered 15+ different UV-filters from eBay and also 5PCS of Amazon Basics filter in 55mm size. Hopefully no-one doesn't anymore need to buy Leica E55 ElPro just for retention ring anymore...

The most reliable source seems to be filters, which have text "55mm UV FILTER" and are like this (this is one of my orders, good deal of 4 filters for 9.95EUR w/ free shipping):
link to eBay to MENGS 4Pcs 44mm UV Slim Lens Filter For Canon Nikon Sony Pentax Olympus Etc
I have these same from other vendors as well (plastic box might be different but filters the same). This far all of these have been optimal 49.8-49.9mm inner diameter range and retention ring has nice thickness (many filters have too thin retention ring) and inner edge is beveled to make potential vignetting smaller.


There were many suprices, for example that Amazon Basics I first ordered one and it was perfect and ordered 4 more, and all new 4 are having inner diameter ~50.1mm and are not able to hold OptoSigma 50mm lens in place.

Majority of cheap eBay UV-filters which have only text "UV 55mm" in the ring have "perfect" 49.80-49.90mm internal diameter. However some of these have 50.5mm inner diameter and are useless.

Most filters which are some "brand" e.g. Kenko, JJC, etc. have retention rings, which are too big to hold OptoSigma 50mm in place.



I have never needed 55mm UV filter in my life, now I have >25 of them

Samuli

Edited on Apr 11, 2017 at 08:31 AM · View previous versions



Apr 04, 2017 at 02:13 PM
artur5
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p.74 #19 · p.74 #19 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


Interesting information. Thanks Samuli.
I have only one 55mm. at home. An old Minolta UV, which has no retention ring. The glass seems bonded to the metal frame and quite impossible to disassemble without destroying it.
Anyway, when my Optosigmas arrive in a few days (hopefully), I’ll try first the straight conversion to ordinary filters, putting them in a blank 52mm. with screw-in retention rings. I have two of these ready. Taking into account that the Optosigmas are 3mm. thick and those retention rings are aprox 1.5mm. there’s just enough thread in the blank filters to hold the glass securely. The only caveat to this solution is that it will be impossible to use additional filters or screw-ìn hoods. So, any cap or lens hood must be of the slip-over type.
Another solution I want to try is 46-55 step-up + 55-52 step-down. Put PCX inside and secure the glass with a retention ring from the blank 52mm. filters. In this case, I’ll have around 2mm. deep of 52mm thread on front. Enough to let me use ordinary lens caps or hoods.



Apr 04, 2017 at 03:47 PM
GMPhotography
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p.74 #20 · p.74 #20 · Front-End Filter Improves Corner Smearing


Been out shooting early early this morning with all three ZMlenses and what I really love and makes you so efficient in the field is setting these up with infinity at the hard stop


Apr 05, 2017 at 09:31 AM
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