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Archive 2016 · Recommendations for a System for Dance Photography?

sarenz
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Recommendations for a System for Dance Photography?

Hello all!

I'm new to the FM forums, and I thought this would be a good place to get some advice on what gear to use for dance/ballet photography. (I'm also cross-posting in the General Gear forum.)

Photography in general has been my hobby for the last several years, and I've found that as I get more into dance photography, I seem to be reaching the limitations of what my current m4/3 system can do in low light with moving subjects. So I'm looking to add a system that will excel at shooting moving subjects in relatively low light (ballet and contemporary dance).

Currently I shoot with an Olympus E-M1 mounting either a Zuiko 35-100mm f2 zoom or Zuiko 150mm f2 prime (equivalent to focal lengths of 70-200mm and 300mm, respectively). Frame rate when shooting action is good (10/11fps), but focus tracking is not, and noise at high ISOs and in shadows is disappointing. So while I'm pleased with the overall performance vs the cost of the system, I'm now looking for the improvements in focus tracking and IQ that FF offers. (I plan to keep the m4/3 system as a companion to whichever FF system I add, probably upgrading to the E-M1 Mk2.)

While I'm sure that any high end body and lens combo from Canon, Nikon, or Sony would give me heaps of improvement in image quality and focus tracking, I'm fairly lost at sea trying to navigate the many different options. I'm planning on renting a system to try out at an upcoming rehearsal. Would anyone care to make some recommendations based on their experience?

To sum up:
In a body, I'm looking for:
--Excellent continuous AF and tracking for action shots in low light.
--Low noise in shadows and at higher ISOs.
--High frame rate in continuous/sequential shooting.
--Quiet mode for when shooting during performances.
--Resolution suitable for printing at poster size.

In lenses, I'm looking for:
--A big, bright 70-200mm zoom with excellent sharpness and contrast for dance rehearsal and performance shooting.
--A prime or two for situations where either greater reach or increased subject isolation are desired.

(One note, I'm sure that the Nikon D5 and Canon 1Dx Mk2 would excel at these requirements, but the bodies are out of my price range. My max budget for a body would be about $3000USD.)

Much thanks for any recommendations and advice!
Scott

Edited on Oct 04, 2016 at 09:40 AM · View previous versions

Sep 30, 2016 at 12:37 PM

kensglamour
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Recommendations for a System for Dance Photography?

You may want to look at Sony products. My Alpha 99 is great and the newer 7R series is also. You can use old Minolta Maxuum lenses or newer Sony products. My favorite portrait lens in 30 years old!

Sep 30, 2016 at 12:42 PM

sarenz
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Recommendations for a System for Dance Photography?

Hi Ken,

Thanks for your recommendation. I found the specs of the newly announced A99 Mk 2 to be particularly intriguing, so it's good to hear your high regard for the lenses on the Sony A mount! Are there any specific lenses you would recommend, either prime or zoom?

Scott

Sep 30, 2016 at 12:54 PM

eSchwab
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Recommendations for a System for Dance Photography?

D500 checks all those boxes.

--Excellent continuous AF and tracking for action shots in low light.
--Low noise in shadows and at higher ISOs.
--High frame rate in continuous/sequential shooting.
--Quiet mode for when shooting during performances.
--Resolution suitable for printing at poster size.

Sep 30, 2016 at 02:56 PM

friscoron
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Recommendations for a System for Dance Photography?

While the "spray and pray" method is a necessity in sports, it is highly looked down upon in dance performance photography. In dance, with each movement there is a peak and it is at that moment that you typically try to photograph. If you're familiar with dance, it's fairly easy to anticipate the peak of each movement. You simply time your single shot for that moment.

You could consider getting a used Nikon D4 and a 70-200 f/2.8 lens. That's what I use when photographing performances.

Sep 30, 2016 at 10:21 PM

nolaguy
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Recommendations for a System for Dance Photography?

friscoron wrote:
In dance, with each movement there is a peak and it is at that moment that you typically try to photograph. If you're familiar with dance, it's fairly easy to anticipate the peak of each movement. You simply time your single shot for that moment.

All day long. Ron knows his stuff.

As he infers, sports often doesn't have a predictable peak moment.

Dance, choreography... intended, deliberate motion does. And it has musical cues.

In the genre, I find I'm far better off being precise than gathering many dots.

Sep 30, 2016 at 10:36 PM

kensglamour
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Recommendations for a System for Dance Photography?

Scott, even though I have and use zoom lenses, about 95% of the time I shoot using primes. Portrait work is a 50mm 1.4 or 85 mm 1.8. Sometimes I use my 70-200 2.8. If I'm shooting landscapes, I'll us the 50 or the big zoom. I also have a 100-200 for travel since it is more compact and a 28mm prime. All are MInolta lenses except the 85 which is Sony. Ken

Oct 01, 2016 at 07:53 PM

sarenz
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Recommendations for a System for Dance Photography?

Eric, Ron, Chuck, and Ken, thanks for your advice on bodies, lenses, and technique. It’s great to get the benefit of others’ experience rather than just relying on my own research and imaginings.

I can definitely understand why one wouldn’t want to just blaze away in the middle of a performance, and it’s good to know that you don’t need to, but instead focus on capturing the climax of the movement. That in turn eases my mind on the requirement of an ultra high frame rate.

One question I have regarding resolution: With my EM-1’s 16MP m4/3 sensor, cropping extensively comes with a penalty in noise and loss of detail, even with excellent lenses. Will the 18MP and 16MP sensors of the Canon 1Dx and Nikon D4 behave similarly, or do they allow a fair amount of cropping while retaining good IQ? With my E-M1, my technique has been to use lenses with ample reach and reduce cropping when possible.

From what everyone has said, it seems like several of the top DSLRs from of the last couple of generations would be a good choice. At this point I’m leaning towards renting a 1Dx or D4s to test out, based on their excellence in low light focusing, and later will try out additional models. I’m looking forward to getting familiar with this new kind of machine!

Oct 01, 2016 at 11:31 PM

bbourizk
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Recommendations for a System for Dance Photography?

I shot my daughters dance concert a couple of weeks ago...Nothing fancy. I used a d500 and the sigma 50-100mm f1.8 paired with a d810 and 200mm f2
I was sitting in the front row as they reserve a couple of seats for me.

The d500 was great and the sigma kept up well. I used that for wide shots and the 200mm for close shots of the kids to isolate them. With these concerts there's a lot of kids on stage so I try to get shots of each child individually.

No hesitation in recommending the d500. It's a beast. I do have the 70-200mm as well but used the sigma all day. and at f1.8 in a dimly lit stage it worked great.

Oct 02, 2016 at 01:38 AM

Steve Wylie
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Recommendations for a System for Dance Photography?

Canon 5D Mark III with the 70-200 f/2.8 IS for me. The camera is a little long in the tooth, but it nails focus every time and is pretty decent in relatively low light. As Ron and Chuck mention above, don't get into the habit of relying on burst shooting for dance. It is, indeed, mostly predictable, and with practice you can train your hand-eye-camera coordination to get perfect moments with a single shot. The main thing is a fast lens to give you enough shutter speed to freeze motion in low light. Also, don't be afraid to shoot for the highlights, and let the dark areas go where they will.

Oct 02, 2016 at 03:22 AM

Paul_K
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Recommendations for a System for Dance Photography?

I shot plenty of dance back in the film days, despite using e.g. a Canon FTqL (no motor), a F2 (I had a winder for it, but the noise was deafening, especially during a dance performance) and a FE, with just manual focus lenses, and 'only' having a max 400 to 800 ISO (Kodak Tri-X) or less (Kodak EPY, ISO 64 or 125 pushed one stop)

Biggest lesson I learned was that dance photography is most of all about timing, which translates into knowing the performance.

If you know the dance routine, you'll recognize the moments when something will 'happen' (the music is the obvious give away) and you really don't need 10 fps to get the shot.
So my first recommendation wouldn't be about the gear, but rather about getting to know the dance.

Best try to attend to the /some of the rehearsals, try get some kind of familiarity with the dance routine and the music.
Thus you will be able to anticipate the moment and be ready to take the shot at just the right moment, rather then shoot and spray when something happens and hope you got something useful.

Modern DSLR's make life much easier in that respect, ISO 3200 or 6400 was something quite unimaginable in the fims days (yes, there was 3M 640T, or Kodak TMax 3200, but that came at the cost of marble size grain), AF has come a long was since eg the F801, and 2.8 or faster longer lenses have become far easier available (although not necessarily cheaper).

Not familiar with the Olympus or other 4/3 camera's but simply due to physics, a smaller sensor will give a lesser high ISO performance then a, e.g., full frame one.
I already see that with the Nikon's I use, my 2008 D3 easily outperforms my 2013 D7100.

Being a Nikon user I can only give an informed recommendation on Nikon models.
If you have the money, maybe a D4 (big and heavy) or D810 (lots of pixels which demand excellent glass).
The D750 is widely recognized excellent option, excellent AF (and AF tracking) and high ISO, relatively small (but probably pretty big coming from a 4/3 Olympus)
The D500 is about the same size as the D810 (although for my feeling 'much' lighter), excellent AF and huge buffer, but personally I was kind of let down by the high ISO performance (but I'm spoiled with Nikon FX bodies, the DF in particular)

Not familiar with Canon, but Nikon and Canon are constantly frog leaping each other with faster (both AF and high ISO) bodies, so I'm quite convinced those cameras are more then capable as well.

I personally never got convinced by the Sony's, been following them since the A900, which an employee of the local Olympus importer in the Netherlands I knew personally tried to talk me into/trading my D3 in for, back in 2008.

The specs of the Sony's have always been quite impressive, but in real world use they for me always were a bit of a let down. On the A900 AF was slow, and high ISO performance couldn't stand in the shadow of my D3.

With the latest top of the line mirrorless bodies that has fortunately improved hugely, e.g. IQ and high ISO is great, but batterylife a joke, and AF is fast on still objects, but together with AF tracking reportedly somewhat troublesome.

Another thing is the availability of (fast) lenses, new and second hand (buying into a new system doesn't always leve enough money to buy the latest and newest glass new), service points, repair facilities etc.

So personally I just stick with my Nikons (don't shoot much dance nowadays, but lot of catwalk which as far as technical conditions, fast moving subjects and at times challenging light conditions is quite similar to shooting dance), not the 'flashiest' and 'exciting' equipment around, but it'll do the job just fine for me

Oct 02, 2016 at 07:24 AM

tonyfield
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Recommendations for a System for Dance Photography?

Interesting questions.

My opinion is that a camera of the Nikon D4 or a Canon 1Dx is the best choice (alternatively the Nikon D750 or the new Canon 5d-IV (although a Canon 5D-III. is also a good choice). You can probably find two or three cameras in each of the Nikon or Canon line that would be a good choice Such cameras have excellent ability to follow focus in poor condition - unlike mirrorless.

Generally, a 70-200 F2.8 and a 24-70 F2.8 will cover the vast majority of dance shooting. In some situations, i occasionally use a 300 2.8.

It is also nice to have high speed primes available ... 35mm,50mm, 85mm F1.4. Sometimes lighting is very low and variable and wide aperture is needed ... primarily to allow higher shutter speeds.

My preference is for primes.... however if there is significant up/down or across stage movement a zoom is often very helpful.

No matter what, avoid mirrorless. There is always sufficient viewfinder lag that destroys any attempt at proper timing for action. In addition, they have generally poor follow-focus ability for dance - however that may change over the next few years.....

Shooting motor drive with spray and pray is an odd way to shoot. If you cannot shoot single frame images properly, it usually means that you do not "understand dance" and cannot anticipate dance movement.

One of my friends has developed a virtually perfect 3-shot sequence timed so the the second frame will capture the action precisely... the first and third frames are insurance. The only thing is that the performers and choreographers do not like the noise from the 3-frame burst and complain. He also shoots the burst even when the dance is relatively static and does not justify a burst (Too hard to turn on/off the motor drive while shooting)

Oct 03, 2016 at 11:55 AM

Steve Wylie
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Recommendations for a System for Dance Photography?

Learning to capture peak action in dance is actually a "three point" conversation between (1) the hand, (2) the eye, and (3) the camera, for just the point that Tony mentions immediately above. Hand-eye coordination is well-understood, but you also need to anticipate the lag between focus acquisition and shutter lag on one hand, and your own hand-eye coordination on the other. That differs among various models of camera, and is the main reason that, at least for me, mirrorless cameras aren't great for dance (although I've briefly handled the Fuji X-T2, which is incredibly responsive in comparison to its predecessor). It's the reason that if you fire the shutter when you see the peak, you've already missed it. So getting it right is not only a matter of anticipating the movement the dancer makes (which involves knowledge of dance), it's also a muscle-memorization process involving intimate knowledge of how your specific camera behaves.

Oct 03, 2016 at 05:55 PM

friscoron
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Recommendations for a System for Dance Photography?

Completely agree with you, Steve, on all counts except one: I think it's (1) eye, then (2) hand and (3) camera. The reason I say that is because of the anticipation of the peak moment. You have you have to see it coming, then time your pressing of the shutter so by the time your camera gets the shot, the dancer is at his or her peak motion.

Oct 03, 2016 at 09:56 PM

ucphotog
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Recommendations for a System for Dance Photography?

I am no expert on dance photography, but I have photographed a dancer friend a few times. I used a D800 and fired the shutter once per jump. At 4 frames per second, it is really too slow for spray and pray. It took some to get used to her timing, and I suppose my own timing, which as has been pointed out includes my eyes, my hand and the camera.

Once I got her rhythm, I was able to nail her at the peak fairly consistently--until I got tired and hungry. Then she had to do seven jumps for me to finally get one decent shot...

One major difference though from general dance photography is that she was jumping just for me. I could see her approach and I knew exactly where and when she would jump. There were no other dancers. Shooting dance in, say, a theater context I'm sure is much harder. Good AF and short delays between squeezing the button and when the camera does its thing would be important.

Not dance, but I shot my kids jumping off of sand dunes once with a Sony A100. The delay in camera must have been a significant fraction of a second. The odds of actually getting the shutter to close while they were in the air was minimal. And capturing them at some specific moment was more or less impossible. I did manage to get some shots, but it was barely better than luck...

Good luck. I have certainly enjoyed the several times I have done it and would like to do more.

Dave

Oct 03, 2016 at 11:30 PM

CW100
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Recommendations for a System for Dance Photography?

tonyfield wrote:
Interesting questions.

My opinion is that a camera of the Nikon D4 or a Canon 1Dx is the best choice (alternatively the Nikon D750 or the new Canon 5d-IV (although a Canon 5D-III. is also a good choice). You can probably find two or three cameras in each of the Nikon or Canon line that would be a good choice Such cameras have excellent ability to follow focus in poor condition - unlike mirrorless.

Generally, a 70-200 F2.8 and a 24-70 F2.8 will cover the vast majority of dance shooting. In some situations, i occasionally use a 300 2.8.

It is also nice...Show more →

I would also use full frame and primes to shoot ballet and dance recitals. a 1DX2 and a set of nice "L" primes would be my choice ..... if someone else was paying!

Oct 07, 2016 at 05:46 AM


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