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Archive 2016 · A real digital Nikon FM2!

  
 
sebboh
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · A real digital Nikon FM2!


For the last decade or so, many people here and elsewhere have whined about the lack of a modern camera like the nikon fm2 (or pentax MX, olympus OM-1, minolta XD-11, etc). While sourcing parts for a work related project, I realized that I could actually build such a camera now by taking an existing FM2 (or like) and sticking (relatively) modern electronics in it. Form factor could be kept from expanding much by not including and LCD. You would have to physically cock the shutter after each shot. Sensor technology would be a couple of generations back (m240 or Df level, maybe even a little older?). A real monochrome sensor could be an option. The camera would have no features not included with the original FM2 other than digital capture and adjustable iso.

My question is, would anybody still be interested in such camera, especially one with outdated image quality? Modern cameras have gotten pretty nice and they even started making small ones again. Simple cameras are still pretty rare, but mostly because most people don't really want them. I'd personally like a digital FM2 (really a digital XD-11), but it's too expensive for me to justify making one for myself (probably around $10k). I would guess that making ~500 would drop the price per unit down to at or below leica prices and that selling 5000 would bring things dow to the the $2k-$3k range (depending on what kind of source I could get for camera bodies). Hence a poll, before I go crazy and head over to kickstarter....

Would you buy something like this? How much would you be willing to pay? What would your requirements for it be?




Sep 26, 2016 at 03:51 PM
kwalsh
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · A real digital Nikon FM2!


What is this offering compared to say an A7 in which you ignore the fancy features? The FM2 really wasn't that small...


Sep 26, 2016 at 03:56 PM
sebboh
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · A real digital Nikon FM2!


kwalsh wrote:
What is this offering compared to say an A7 in which you ignore the fancy features? The FM2 really wasn't that small...


basically just better build quality and the inability to do a bunch of stuff. It would have a very nice optical viewfinder designed for manual focus though...

this is why i'm doubtful many people would actually pay for such a thing despite what i've heard in the past.

fwiw the fm2 is basically the same size as an a7 classic (little shorter, little longer if i remember correctly). here's the a7 vs my xd-11:
http://c1.staticflickr.com/3/2836/13332617324_4e5f58aee1_o.jpg

edit: oh, an m6 would be another option, but that would require buying an actual m6 for each camera conversion.



Sep 26, 2016 at 04:08 PM
FlyPenFly
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · A real digital Nikon FM2!


If you made it super flexible by making the backs exchangeable to a OM2 or FM2, I would buy it if it's under $1,000.

I think you can get around having an LCD if there's a BT or WIFI module. I only really care about checking if I'm studio shooting or if I'm traveling somewhere I won't be back. Need to make sure I got the critical focus shots in.

Maybe a Kickstarter?

I imagine if you can buy NEX7 or NEX6 sensors in bulk and figure out a way to wire the shutter in, it would work pretty well.



Sep 26, 2016 at 04:57 PM
retrofocus
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · A real digital Nikon FM2!


Nice idea to do this as hobby if you can build it yourself - there are no limits, why not exploring it? Commercially on the other hand, not sure if it flies. It is pretty much a film camera made digital - you give up the advantages which film might have compared to digital and just simplify the process to have instant access to digital photos (so you save development time of film and time to digitize).

Personally I prefer to use my film cameras where and when I believe film is a better choice for me. In parallel I am using FF digital cameras for everything else.

Regarding avoiding too many options/electronics in camera systems, Leica is the way to go IMO. Unfortunately they are still a few steps behind in current FF sensor technology for digital options. But for film, those M cameras are simply superb.



Sep 26, 2016 at 05:22 PM
kwalsh
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · A real digital Nikon FM2!


sebboh wrote:
It would have a very nice optical viewfinder designed for manual focus though...


Ah, got it. Compact body with OVF. And yeah, stripped down and so forth from there. But the compact body OVF is what to me would distinguish it from an A7 stripped of features.

Honestly for my shooting (landscape and my young daughter) I greatly prefer the EVF focus aides available these days compared to OVF aides like a split prism. I shot OVFs for a long time, and ground glass on a 4x5 for awhile too, but these days I really find EVFs vastly more useful than OVFs. Sure, I get a nostalgic warm fuzzy feeling from a nice big, bright OVF - but in the end the EVF proves much more useful to me.




Sep 26, 2016 at 06:00 PM
kwalsh
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · A real digital Nikon FM2!


Oh, and to better flush out what you are proposing... Are you going for a whole new camera body design or would you just take an existing FM2 or similar body and build a digital back for it (not necessarily interchangeable, perhaps permanently mounted but again the bulk of the camera body and shutter coming from and existing camera).


Sep 26, 2016 at 06:02 PM
sebboh
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · A real digital Nikon FM2!


kwalsh wrote:
Oh, and to better flush out what you are proposing... Are you going for a whole new camera body design or would you just take an existing FM2 or similar body and build a digital back for it (not necessarily interchangeable, perhaps permanently mounted but again the bulk of the camera body and shutter coming from and existing camera).


I was going to take old FM2 bodies and integrate an off the shelf sensor and electronics into them. It seems like it would be more difficult to keep size down and correctly align the sensor as an interchangeable module, but building a new body and viewfinder that is as nice as an old one would be prohibitively expensive. I was thinking the FM2 because of it's high speed mechanical shutter, but an m6 mod might be nice to compete with leica for the smallest FF digital rangefinder.

I was talking about using a FF sensor here btw. cramming the guts of a NEX camera into an old film body would be a considerably cheaper way to go.




Sep 26, 2016 at 06:20 PM
Jay968
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · A real digital Nikon FM2!


What I don't understand is why Nikon hasn't taken the FM2 body and built a mirrorless camera around it. I think that if pricing wasn't too high it would be one of their best selling cameras.


Sep 26, 2016 at 07:12 PM
FlyPenFly
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · A real digital Nikon FM2!


FF would be far more compelling but not sure you can get mass FF sensors on the cheap. This would be just a fun novelty item to really enhance the experience of shooting so I imagine costs above the $1,000 mark would be a hard sell.


Sep 26, 2016 at 07:13 PM
banpreso
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · A real digital Nikon FM2!


for this to work it would have to be full frame. you are basically appealing to people who are looking at the leica edition 60 and giving them a cheaper alternative. people who would be ok making a compromise on not having full frame would have already gone the fuji route. most people would've already had a DSLR or A7 type of camera before considering your offering, so you'll really have to lure them into buying this additional camera which is redundant.

you'd really have to focus on the build. maybe it'd be a good idea to go with black painted over brass so the patina will show through like those old black M3 that goes for $20k on ebay... The camera will have to be really quiet, and taking a picture would be like hearing a mouse sneezing. all the knobs and switches has got to feel amazing. This is a street camera primarily.

for engineering, make sure germans are involved for marketing purposes. it doesn't matter if you make this camera in china but just make sure at least one german dude is involved in the engineering team. make him talk in the kickstarter video with his sexy accent.

make sure steve huff gets the pre-release model.

consider the mount. do you REALLY want to go with the nikon mount? i don't think that mount has many great lenses (compared to contax, leica r, FD, minolta MD, olympus, etc). The adaptability of lenses to the nikon mount also aren't the best.

price, if you use old sensor tech it would be difficult to charge high prices. i think maybe a two tiered pricing system? $1200 ish for a basic model (A900/ 5D mark 2/ D700 sensor), and $2500 for a brass finished higher end model (A7 or A7R sensor). or, you can do CCD. i bet CCD will look great in the marketing material.

will i buy one? probably not, but hipsters will. i'd probably just shoot film at that point.

if you can put the same effort into making a macro lens adapter kit for scanning film, that thing would sell well for sure.

Edited on Sep 26, 2016 at 09:40 PM · View previous versions



Sep 26, 2016 at 09:11 PM
mysh
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · A real digital Nikon FM2!


I am in love with the FM2 body and viewfinder and if it was possible to get the DF sensor in a fm2 body I would buy it.


Sep 26, 2016 at 09:40 PM
pinholecam
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · A real digital Nikon FM2!


Wasn't the Nikon DF supposed to fill this niche (for Nikon users at least?)


Take that A7 and Minolta pic from above.
Take off the A7 top plate and sand blast off the black.
Anodize it silver (unless you're into gold )
Get a metal/brass front plate made and engraved with Logo of choice "Nikony" "P_ony" "Olyony", etc. ), and cover over the SONY logo.


I think it'd look rather close to a old school cam as possible and the user gets to choose what features he/she wants to use (or not)

Very doable too, imo



Sep 26, 2016 at 10:00 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · A real digital Nikon FM2!


I'd love me a full frame FE-2!


Sep 26, 2016 at 10:10 PM
trogdon
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · A real digital Nikon FM2!


I think with film cameras as the base we'd come to find out our optical finders and split prisms are not quite the level of precision for manually focusing that we are used to when shooting digitally with adapted lenses


Sep 26, 2016 at 10:24 PM
sebboh
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · A real digital Nikon FM2!


trogdon wrote:
I think with film cameras as the base we'd come to find out our optical finders and split prisms are not quite the level of precision for manually focusing that we are used to when shooting digitally with adapted lenses


that's easy to adjust when the sensor gets installed, but generally tolerances were tighter in the film cameras of that era than in current cameras where the important tolerance is in the phase detect sensor not in the viewfinder screen. I do believe that modern evfs are better for manual focus in most situations these days (and will continue to get greater). there are a lot of people that enjoy a real ovf more though.

Jay968 wrote:
What I don't understand is why Nikon hasn't taken the FM2 body and built a mirrorless camera around it. I think that if pricing wasn't too high it would be one of their best selling cameras.


because it would cost what a leica does to make a body like that today and adding AF would cripple the finder.

FlyPenFly wrote:
FF would be far more compelling but not sure you can get mass FF sensors on the cheap. This would be just a fun novelty item to really enhance the experience of shooting so I imagine costs above the $1,000 mark would be a hard sell.


yeah, under $2000 could be possible but under $1000 almost certainly could not without a huge volume.

pinholecam wrote:
Wasn't the Nikon DF supposed to fill this niche (for Nikon users at least?)


yeah, but it's kinda bloated trying to be two things at the same time.

banpreso wrote:
make sure steve huff gets the pre-release model.


ha! good idea.

banpreso wrote:
will i buy one? probably not, but hipsters will. i'd probably just shoot film at that point.

if you can put the same effort into making a macro lens adapter kit for scanning film, that thing would sell well for sure.


i can make one of those easily, but i don't share your opinion about demand for turning your digital camera into a film scanner. do you think it would be better with a macro lens included optimized just for ~1:1 magnification or just an adjustable tube with a film holder that can be mounted on an existing macro?




Sep 27, 2016 at 12:53 AM
freaklikeme
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · A real digital Nikon FM2!


Wouldn't it be easier to do with Leica R8's and 9's? They already had the power supply connections necessary for the DMR. Of course, they're not cheap, but generally cheaper than the M6.

I'd by a monochrome FM2 for under $2000, but I'd be willing to pay a little more to get an R8.



Sep 27, 2016 at 01:08 AM
banpreso
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · A real digital Nikon FM2!


i mean just a simple adapter that screw onto the filter thread of macro lenses. it just makes things easier to scan film at home. maybe also include an optional flash gun adapter to light the film the right way.

also don't forget medium format options. price it under $150. i think it'd do well.



Sep 27, 2016 at 01:12 AM
sebboh
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · A real digital Nikon FM2!


freaklikeme wrote:
Wouldn't it be easier to do with Leica R8's and 9's? They already had the power supply connections necessary for the DMR. Of course, they're not cheap, but generally cheaper than the M6.

I'd by a monochrome FM2 for under $2000, but I'd be willing to pay a little more to get an R8.


are they cheaper than the m6 now?

a FF DMR would definitely be easier for leica to do, not sure if it would be any easier for me. as pretty as i think the R8/9 is i'd rather have a smaller camera with a different lens mount. not sure how many R8s and R9s are available either.

i'm liking the m6 (maybe m3?) monochrome idea for myself.

banpreso wrote:
i mean just a simple adapter that screw onto the filter thread of macro lenses. it just makes things easier to scan film at home. maybe also include an optional flash gun adapter to light the film the right way.

also don't forget medium format options. price it under $150. i think it'd do well.


i use one of these myself, i'm surprised nobody seems to make one. MF and 35mm should be accessible with the same attachment if it has adjustable length.




Sep 27, 2016 at 01:53 AM
rico
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · A real digital Nikon FM2!


Most enthusiast-grade film SLRs had removable backs, so packaging for this new product could be a digital back customized to each supported SLR (FM2, XD-11, etc). Buyer would provide their own body.


Sep 27, 2016 at 03:03 AM
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