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Archive 2016 · High ISO noise

  
 
lighthound
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · High ISO noise


I need some opinions here.
I've been pulling my hair out and quite frankly getting PO'd on my rig's inability to shoot in low light without the ISO going through the damn roof.

The below shots were at least reasonable ISO's (for me) coming in at 5000 and 4000. But even at this ISO I have to deal with this high ISO noise and I'm wondering how far is far enough or too far.

Almost all of my critter shots (not just these which were shot around 7:30am) are in low light and this is an on going battle for me that is really getting on my last nerve. I need to figure out the best way to deal with this in a more efficient way in my work flow and not kill the sharpness of critical areas.

I used NIK's "Dfine2" to process the second image of each of these. I can see a loss of some sharpness but I think I can live with it considering the time savings plus I can refine the adjustments if needed.

Posting these @1200 in hopes that you can see what I'm rambling about.
The little specks around the Bull are little flies and not any type of ISO noise.

And again, these are somewhat tamer than the normal ISO12800 I usually end up with which are pretty much worthless to me.

So what do you think?
Are the originals good enough in your book?
Are the "Dfine2" clean enough or not enough?
Do you see a loss of sharpness in the cleaned up versions?

Dave







#1 LR6 adjustments only no noise correction







#2 LR6 adjustments plus Dfine noise correction







#3 LR6 adjustments only no noise correction







#4 LR6 adjustments plus Dfine noise correction




Sep 19, 2016 at 09:13 PM
beavens
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · High ISO noise


You're going to lose some fine detail but I would say the noise reduction is an okay tradeoff.

Does the 70D really struggle with low light?



Sep 19, 2016 at 09:24 PM
lighthound
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · High ISO noise


Thanks Jeff. So the amount I used looks about right to you?

I don't really have any experience with any other cameras so comparatively I'm not sure where the 70D falls. I do know that I have to push my SS down dangerously slow 1/250 like these are in order to even get ISO 5000. I have lost a good many shots due to motion blur because of this but if I don't, then I end up with BS 5 digit ISO values most of the time.




Sep 19, 2016 at 09:33 PM
Camperjim
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · High ISO noise


I have had great success with noise reduction using the Canon DPP4 software. It seems pretty easy to remove a fairly high level of noise and still retain details. Since it came free with your camera, it is definitely worth a try.


Sep 19, 2016 at 10:24 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · High ISO noise


Back when I was doing birds with a 1DS3, I never went above ISO800, so I am very impressed with ISO5000.

I have a hard time seeing any difference between the noise reduced and non noise reduced versions. But I still run NR on ISO100 shots for the sky.



Sep 20, 2016 at 10:16 AM
lighthound
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · High ISO noise


Thanks Jim! I have never used it before but I'm willing to take a look at it and see if this could help.

The NIK Dfine2 process seems to work pretty well and is less damaging than LR but I still have to come out of LR where I do most of my editing and the part I hate about any of the NIK software is that once you save your image it is impossible to go back where you left off should you need to make further adjustments.


On a side note. Can anyone tell me if those ISO's are normal for the lighting and settings? It seems like my ISO goes way to high for the given light.


Dave



Sep 20, 2016 at 10:19 AM
OregonSun
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · High ISO noise


The amount of noise reduction looks pretty good to me. I use Neat Image (PS filter) for noise reduction, though I haven't upgraded to the latest version. It's not free, but there is a 30 day trial I think. It has very granular control that works great for me.

I also use Web Sharpener for output sharpening and resizing. This PS Script is free, but I donated $25 to the developer 'cause I like it so much. I don't do any sharpening in LR and minimal amounts in Neat Image. I find that a lot of the loss of detail from noise reduction can be recovered with Web Sharpener.

The ISO seems right to me, I often get this high in shade/overcast/sunrise/sunset scenarios. The noise performance of your 70D looks pretty similar to the 7Dii I use. I'm pretty happy with shots up to 6400 and sometimes 8000 using the above tools.

I've also found that nailing the focusing and exposure does wonders for the ability to apply noise reduction and sharpening.

It would be tricky on these particular shots, but running heavy noise reduction on only the background works great when the subject is sufficiently isolated from the background.

Both very nice shots BTW.

Heron



Sep 20, 2016 at 12:50 PM
lighthound
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · High ISO noise


Thank you Heron for that great info. I will look into both of those. Actually, after reading your reply I already started reading up on the Neat Image program and it does sound really good. I need to figure out if these will work with PSE as I don't have PS yet. The day is getting close me thinks.

And thank you for confirming those ISO's are about right. I was really starting to wonder if my 70D was messed up or something. I see other folks great wildlife shots all the time in low light conditions and I rarely see the crazy high ISO that is the norm for me.
So it has to be their glass which puts me out of the game for the foreseeable future unfortunately.
I really need to hit that lottery one of these days.


Dave



Sep 20, 2016 at 02:04 PM
lighthound
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · High ISO noise


Wow! I just tried DPP for the first time per Jim's suggestion to see how it handled high ISO noise.

And in normal Dave fashion I got off track and tried to completely edit this image from scratch just in DPP to see where I ended up. Call me crazy (and color blind) but I think this below DPP edit looks much better and not as blocky contrast as my OP images above that I did in LR.

I still see some noise and should have gone a little further I think.

I think I see something funky going on on his rump/rear leg color but I'm not sure. Anyone?

And what do you think of this image overall compared to the OP image above?

I know these images are not anything special due to the busy BG and nothing special going on. I'm just picking on these to learn a better process work flow for the noise issue.

I still need to look into the other software that has been suggested but I thought I'd start with what is already on my system for tonight.

Dave






DPP processed only




Sep 20, 2016 at 08:47 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · High ISO noise


DPP ... very diff, much more natural looking.

I'd be curious to see the amount of noise in the raw. I'm kinda thinking that the noise I'm seeing is mostly in the shadow or darker areas. Wondering if your sharpening parameters are inducing the noise more prominently. If so, a revised sharpening might be appropriate, or sharpening selectively so that you aren't amplifying the noise in non-essential areas via global sharpening.

Personally, I rarely use NR (globally, anyway). I just don't sharpen those areas (i.e. selective sharpening). If an area is still having too much noise, then it get selectively addressed. If my primary subject is too noisy ... it's likely not a keeper anyway.

That's not to say that NR should be abandoned, just understand if you're jacking up your noise along the way rather than relying on NR to handle it. Two steps forward and one step back ... ummm, how about just one step forward, instead.




Sep 20, 2016 at 11:17 PM
lighthound
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · High ISO noise


Thank you Kent, I was thinking the same thing on the DPP rework. I want realistic but with a little pop but I think I went off track on the OP images. I was actually shocked to see my OP images in comparison as I "thought" I had processed them nicely. But I can now see I pushed the black point or something way too hard.

And to answer your questions about the amount of noise in the raw file, the OP images had zero NR and I selectively sharpened only the face area and some of the neck I think. I did try to burn down the BG a little to reduce the distraction of it being so busy. However I did not do any NR or global sharpening in the first image of both sets above.

I take comfort in reading your thoughts on global NR and sharpening as that's how I normally approach this as well. However, this is why I have been pulling my hair out. Using LR, I painstakingly brush in NR on the bad areas of the dark BG and meticulously around every one of the damn antlers. NOT my idea of fun and I have to find a better way. This is why I tried NIK's Dfine2, it allows you to select luminous values of areas not to include.

I would like to send you a couple of raw CR2 files that I have with me today and see what you think. I was hoping you would pop in here because I know you just got the 80D and maybe some of your recent shots might be a good comparison. Especially if you have any at the same camera settings and in the same light.

Not sure if you have the time to take a look at them, but I'll pm you a couple CR2 files for you to look at if you get the time and would be so kind to let me know what you're seeing.

Dave



Sep 21, 2016 at 09:18 AM
AuntiPode
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · High ISO noise


Consider using a noise reduction layer with masking and layer blending to apply different amounts of noise reduction to different parts of the image. I often find this works better than a single "one size fits all" noise reduction layer.


Sep 21, 2016 at 02:31 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · High ISO noise


+1 @ Karen selective application ... which is also nicely adjusjustable via mask density, opacity or a few other techniques.

Played with your file a bit.

Caveats:

1. I processed using ACR for some NR and some Sharpening ... I never do that but I just wanted to see how it would fare using those tools.

2. I'm working outside in the dark (literally), so my normal editing environment is not in play here.

3. I took the file from ProPhoto RGB to ColorMatch RGB before going into CS6

That said, don't pay so much attention to what I did, but I'll simply say that for the 70D @ ISO 4000 @ 7:30 AM with an EXIF @ 7+ stops below Sunny 16 in the mountain valley ... the amount of noise in your RAW is not anything I would cry foul about. Rather, it might be S T R E T C H I N G your PP skills, to raise them a bit.

When I turned off all the NR, the color noise was more prominent than the luminance noise. But, in ACR the color noise cleaned up pretty well. Seeing all the color noise is why I moved from ProPhoto RGB color space to Color Match RGB. The "bigger" space pushes things father, and if our color noise is present, I'm not inclined to think we want to amplify our colors until AFTER we correct them (if desired), thus the move to a smaller space.

Once in PS, I set up two layers, one for USM, one for NR ... inverse masked and played around to taste. Understanding that I never got the luminance noise to fully go away, but to make it manageable for resizing (25%). Then AFTER resizing, I applied some more USM to get a bit more detail.

Anyway, this is what I came up with ... noting a bunch of caveats. I may get inside and go "Ugggh", that's terrible. But out here in the dark ... well, you get what ya paid for.







Sep 21, 2016 at 07:16 PM
Shasoc
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · High ISO noise


NR and sharpening need always to be done on separate layers. I use a plugins for both of these adjustments.
If it was my image I would tone it down. That will also help the NR while the contrast will enhance detail.
Socrate







Sep 21, 2016 at 09:11 PM
lighthound
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · High ISO noise


AuntiPode wrote:
Consider using a noise reduction layer with masking and layer blending to apply different amounts of noise reduction to different parts of the image. I often find this works better than a single "one size fits all" noise reduction layer.


Thanks Karen. I guess I have reached the point where I must make the jump over to PS. I have procrastinated over this long enough and just need to get'r done.

Dave
---------------------------------------------

RustyBug wrote:
+1 @ Karen selective application ... which is also nicely adjusjustable via mask density, opacity or a few other techniques.

Played with your file a bit.

Caveats:

1. I processed using ACR for some NR and some Sharpening ... I never do that but I just wanted to see how it would fare using those tools.

2. I'm working outside in the dark (literally), so my normal editing environment is not in play here.

3. I took the file from ProPhoto RGB to ColorMatch RGB before going into CS6

That said, don't pay so much attention to what I did, but I'll simply say that for
...Show more


Thanks for taking the time to take a look at that image Kent. Good to hear my 70D noise is on par for those settings and exposure.

Silly question, but I can't figure out what you mean by 7 stops under Sunny 16. I still get confused on the Sunny 16 rule in this situation and it never makes sense to me so I just let the ISO float based on my needed SS and Aperture. Was my exposure wrong? Looked good to me.

As I mentioned to Karen, I think I need to be S T R E T C H I N G open my wallet as well as my PP skills and finally break down and get PS. I intended to do this last winter for my "winter project" but a little flooring project took over my life and I never got around to it. Time to make the jump me thinks.

Just imagine the visual carnage you folks are going to have to put up with once I get my grubby hands into PS. Hell, I do enough damage just in LR6.

Thanks again Kent for taking the time to take a look at them and for the PS process explanation.

BTW... What's up with you being outside in the dark? Is your better half making you sleep outside now?
Maybe you shouldn't have bought that new camera. Better sell it to me quick before the cold winter gets here.

Dave

---------------------------------------------

Shasoc wrote:
NR and sharpening need always to be done on separate layers. I use a plugins for both of these adjustments.
If it was my image I would tone it down. That will also help the NR while the contrast will enhance detail.
Socrate



Thank you Socrate. This is now clear to me that must take the plunge into the PS bunny hole. I've put it off long enough. Your edit is nice! What plugins do you use or is there only one common one out there that everyone uses?

Dave



Sep 22, 2016 at 01:14 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · High ISO noise


I have used Neat Image, Nik and Topaz NR. I use Topaz now because it was the first one to support 64 bit. I don't think it matters much, they all work.

I typically make a copy of the sky or whatever part I want to reduce noise and then run NR on that layer. When you get Photoshop, you can come back here and get some masking guidance. Not from me though, I still struggle with them. Karen is very good at this however.



Sep 22, 2016 at 01:31 PM
Shasoc
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · High ISO noise


lighthound wrote:
---------------------------------------------


Thank you Socrate. This is now clear to me that must take the plunge into the PS bunny hole. I've put it off long enough. Your edit is nice! What plugins do you use or is there only one common one out there that everyone uses?

Dave




I use Topaz De Noise (since it came out), but any NR plug in would do the job. For the Web sharpening I actually use a Script that works only in PS.



Sep 22, 2016 at 06:57 PM





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