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Tariq Gibran
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bobbytan wrote:
You are right. Been down that road too. When we were in Iceland we were speeding to get to our location as the setting sun was just spectacular ... but we couldn't get there in time. If we did we would all have taken a few grab shots as there wouldn't be time to set the tripod up. So yes, the magical light may last no longer than a minute. It's just that I have not seen it described this way.



What I'm describing is actually different than planning ahead and trying to capture a known phenomenon. The rainbow analogy is closer as it's unpredictable. In my case, I'm thinking of fast moving cloudscapes which change in appearance by the second AND where the composition of the clouds with the land also changes of course. That's why I describe it as "Decisive Moment" because it's the intersection of just the right composition of fleeting elements captured at the exact right moment. More fleeting than even a rainbow and not as predictable as the magic hour (though, of course, even that is not predictable with regard to composition, clouds, etc.). "Run-and-gun" landscape photography!



Sep 04, 2016 at 04:46 PM
gdanmitchell
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rbf_ wrote:
I find that I often feel frantic as I don't often have time to be waiting for the light in a decent location. If the conditions seem good and I'm reasonably near any of my pre staked out locations I'll try to get there in time. Hopefully with enough time to setup the tripod, compose and get a few shots I like this new term, Decisive Moment landscape photography


I shared another of my terms with Bill Neill recently post-visualization. ;-)

Sometimes it is the case that we go out with a very specific image in mind and that we arrive at that spot at the right time with the image more or less already in mind. Sometimes I almost do that when I return to a location that I have previously photographed in order to refine my vision of the subject.

More typically we go to a general location or subject and then we "hunt," looking around for the specific subject and composition that we will photograph and only discovering it as we do this careful assessment and looking on the scene.

In addition, we rely greatly on things that we cannot control. We can pick the time of day or the season, but we cannot control the color of the light or the density of the haze or the wind or the clouds or the particular colors of leaves or flow of water. So we learn to work quickly and intuitively and often decisively with what we find.

I think that the term "pre-visualization" has confused some people into imagining that it means to arrive on the scene with the mental image of the photograph fully formed and to then simply set about recording that image. But that isn' what Ansel meant nor what others such as Weston meant when they used different terminology. Their idea was a bit more immediate and it recognized the role that spontaneity has in creating the photograph.

Rather than referring to what might be instead called pre-planning, it simply referred to imagining the thing you were about photograph as a print it would become. Essentially this only is aboutlooking at the subject, the ground glass, or today's EVF and seeing past the immediate representation of the subject there to what it will become as a print, and then making decisions about exposure and composition based on that thinking.

In this way, pre-visualization is not at all dissonant with the reality of working with serendipity on the scene.

:-)

Dan


Edited on Sep 04, 2016 at 05:22 PM · View previous versions



Sep 04, 2016 at 05:07 PM
Tariq Gibran
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gdanmitchell wrote:
I shared another of my terms with Bill Neill recently post-visualization. ;-)


It's funny as I often use that term in conjunction with film to describe the incubation period that exists between capturing the latent image up until the time of processing and finally printing. With film, it's often a more drawn out process so the mind has longer to work on the latent image during "post-visualiazion". With digital, the entire process is very often compressed, which can result in a completely different final result simply due to either the shorter incubation period or even lack of an incubation period. For some, this is also why "chimping" can be detrimental to the final result. Sometimes, a slowed-down, drawn-out process can be creatively helpful.

One of my "Decisive Moment" landscapes (not shot on film btw):








Sep 04, 2016 at 05:19 PM
rbf_
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gdanmitchell wrote:
I shared another of my terms with Bill Neill recently post-visualization. ;-)

Sometimes it is the case that we go out with a very specific image in mind and that we arrive at that spot at the right time with the image more or less already in mind. Sometimes I almost do that when I return to a location that I have previously photographed in order to refine my vision of the subject.

More typically we go to a general location or subject and then we "hunt," looking around for the specific subject and composition that we will photograph and only
...Show more

That's an interesting distinction. I know there is a good amount of pre-planning that does go on for landscape photography and that could be confused with pre-visualization. Food for thought...

BTW - I'm not sure how Adams or Weston would take our jesting application of HCB's 'decisive moment' term to landscape photography




Sep 04, 2016 at 05:48 PM
gdanmitchell
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rbf_ wrote:
BTW - I'm not sure how Adams or Weston would take our jesting application of HCB's 'decisive moment' term to landscape photography


I did not know Adams. I only met him once, and when I was too young to understand. However, I know a lot of folks who knew him well, including several who worked with and for him and others who took his workshops and/or were/are connected with the Ansel Adams Gallery.

I cannot presume to speak definitively for him, but I don't think he would be at all upset. He had his share of "decisive moment" photographs. For example, if you aren't already familiar with the tale, look up the story of how he made the exposure(s) for "Moonlight, Hernandez..." sometime. Or see one of my favorite Adams photographs, made with a handheld 35mm camera.

Dan



Sep 04, 2016 at 06:12 PM
rbf_
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gdanmitchell wrote:
I did not know Adams. I only met him once, and when I was too young to understand. However, I know a lot of folks who knew him well, including several who worked with and for him and others who took his workshops and/or were/are connected with the Ansel Adams Gallery.

I cannot presume to speak definitively for him, but I don't think he would be at all upset. He had his share of "decisive moment" photographs. For example, if you aren't already familiar with the tale, look up the story of how he made the exposure(s) for "Moonlight, Hernandez..."
...Show more

Thanks! I will do that. I think it was Weston who had some issues with CHB's comment's that some photographers work lacked social significance, unlike his own

Wow, that's a great photo! Never saw that one before


Edited on Sep 04, 2016 at 06:24 PM · View previous versions



Sep 04, 2016 at 06:17 PM
Tariq Gibran
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gdanmitchell wrote:
I did not know Adams. I only met him once, and when I was too young to understand. However, I know a lot of folks who knew him well, including several who worked with and for him and others who took his workshops and/or were/are connected with the Ansel Adams Gallery.

I cannot presume to speak definitively for him, but I don't think he would be at all upset. He had his share of "decisive moment" photographs. For example, if you aren't already familiar with the tale, look up the story of how he made the exposure(s) for "Moonlight, Hernandez..."
...Show more

That image of Georgia O'Keeffe and Orville Cox is also one of my favorites of his. I guess the story is that Cox's wife was not so happy of that image and tore the print up - and then later, after Adam's death, wanted another copy (which she did not get!).




Sep 04, 2016 at 06:22 PM
Pavel
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I'm not at all interested in more megapixels, quite the opposite, but might put my distaste aside for a large 645 sized sensor. The bokeh is completely different on Medium format so that part intrigues me. On the other hand I worry that Fuji is spreading itself a bit thin and would favor things like more macro choices, better flash (and a small flash with High speed sync) and most of all - Two or three tilt-shift lenses. That is the only thing that I really miss from the Nikon system.

now if Fujji would build a Medium format system with leaf shutters ... that would be a different level of "worth-while" all-together, I feel. We almost have too much stuff. Live should have a bit of misery. It heightens the feeling of accomplishment.



Sep 04, 2016 at 09:55 PM
retrofocus
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TheEmrys wrote:
The other way to look at it is that Sony has essentially let their the mirrorless aps-c lens (and body, barring the a6300) lineup stagnate, leaving it solely to Fuji. No one else makes aps-c bodies and lenses. The difference with Fuji is that they are making lenses which are FF equivalents. Why make FF when you already have FF equivalent lenses? The increase in IQ will be minor. Now, a jump to mirrorless MF would give Fuji the only moderately priced snall MF system.

No competetion > competition.


I think that Fuji has itself locked into the APS-C mirrorless position - for one reason because of the Fuji lenses which all fit the APS-C sensor size but not FF as you mentioned. Likely Fuji made the decision not to invest in additional FF lenses for a potential FF mirrorless camera. Now they need to make larger medium format lenses.....not sure if this makes sense what they are doing. Fuji could have gotten easily in a market #2 position with FF mirrorless (not counting Leica here). Even in a #2 spot there is still good profit to make from this new technology - much harder in #3 and #4 positions where Canon/Nikon might be heading to in the future.

I am not convinced that Fuji did a right move here with (a) ignoring FF mirrorless demand, and (b) pushing now into the even more limited in numbers medium-format segment. Sony certainly will be very happy about this.

Saying that the IQ increase between APS-C and FF is minor - why do you think people went FF in DSLRs, too? There are good reasons for such move no matter if DSLR or mirrorless....for me it was the breaking point why I had to disregard a Fuji mirrorless camera because I do not want to go back to APS-C.



Sep 04, 2016 at 11:55 PM
TheEmrys
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I suppose it depends on the price point Fuji can arrive at. If they have a sub-$4,000 body, ot could be a real game changer, even if lenses are at a premium. It is just possible considering the lack of engineering required for mirrorless. But there just isn't any getting around the cost of the sensor. Even cropped MF sensors are spendy, despite having a mature process at Sony's fabs.

Now, if this new system can have a simple electronic adapter and the lenses can be used on the X-Mount, things get really interesting. While running an aps-c and full frame tandem doesn't strictly appeal when all my lenses are already full frame equivalents, an aps-c and mf tandem looks interesting if I can mount all the MF lenses on my xt2.



Sep 05, 2016 at 12:37 AM
 

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charles.K
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I think this is a great strategic move by Fuji as they will be catering to either sides of the FF market. I suspect Fuji may well be aware that Canon or Nikon will also enter into the mirrorless FF market very soon and it will be very crowded.

Fuji has expertise in MF, whereas Sony, Canon and Nikon do not, so it should not be too difficult for Fuji to compete in the MF arena.



Sep 05, 2016 at 12:55 AM
chez
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charles.K wrote:
I think this is a great strategic move by Fuji as they will be catering to either sides of the FF market. I suspect Fuji may well be aware that Canon or Nikon will also enter into the mirrorless FF market very soon and it will be very crowded.

Fuji has expertise in MF, whereas Sony, Canon and Nikon do not, so it should not be too difficult for Fuji to compete in the MF arena.


But how big is the MF digital market? New camera(s) plus a whole suite of lenses need to be developed for a market that the latest full frame cameras from Canon and Sony are pushing into. With Pentax and Hassy already in the MF market, it's not like Fuji will be walking into an untouched market.



Sep 05, 2016 at 01:23 AM
chez
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TheEmrys wrote:
While running an aps-c and full frame tandem doesn't strictly appeal when all my lenses are already full frame equivalents, an aps-c and mf tandem looks interesting if I can mount all the MF lenses on my xt2.


Yes, I'd love to see the usability of an Xt2 with a huge lens hanging off it...sort of defeats what the xt2 is all about. Can't see the being a very popular combo.




Sep 05, 2016 at 01:27 AM
gdanmitchell
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TheEmrys wrote:
I suppose it depends on the price point Fuji can arrive at. If they have a sub-$4,000 body, ot could be a real game changer, even if lenses are at a premium. It is just possible considering the lack of engineering required for mirrorless. But there just isn't any getting around the cost of the sensor. Even cropped MF sensors are spendy, despite having a mature process at Sony's fabs.

Now, if this new system can have a simple electronic adapter and the lenses can be used on the X-Mount, things get really interesting. While running an aps-c and full
...Show more

Sub-$4000 would be a big surprise. I tend to think it would be more, but perhaps less than the current $7k Pentax 645z price. Of course if it were to come in below $4k (again, not likely in my view) that could be a serious game changer in the market.

One interesting thing is that when we think of MF we (at least those who have been around this for a while) tend to think of the real 645 format and other rather large film formats. But the "mini-MF" sensors of the Pentax and current Hasselblad and other systems is much smaller at only 33mm x 44mm. This is only approximately half the area of the 6cm x 4.5cm systems, and not quite twice as large as the 24mm x 36mm full frame sensors. (You can think of the mini-MF sensor area as being approximately equal to what you get from stitching two full frame images together.)

This means that there is considerable room to make these (mini) MF systems smaller than those old film systems, whether they use a Pentax 645z design or a mirrorless design. And while the lenses can't be as small as similar angle-of-view full frame lenses, they are smaller than the 6 x 4.5 system lenses.

Interesting times, no? :-)

Of course, this discussion probably won't be of much interest to those who aren't interested in the mini-MF format or in the Fujifilm offering, or to those who think Fujifilm is embarking on a losing strategy that wouldn't interest them, right?

Dan


Edited on Sep 05, 2016 at 01:59 AM · View previous versions



Sep 05, 2016 at 01:49 AM
charles.K
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chez wrote:
But how big is the MF digital market? New camera(s) plus a whole suite of lenses need to be developed for a market that the latest full frame cameras from Canon and Sony are pushing into. With Pentax and Hassy already in the MF market, it's not like Fuji will be walking into an untouched market.


The MF is a more niche market and it will depend on price and how good the camera and lenses that will be offered. Until the release we can only guess




Sep 05, 2016 at 01:51 AM
chez
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gdanmitchell wrote:
Of course, this discussion probably won't be of much interest to those who aren't interested in the mini-MF format or in the Fujifilm offering, or to those who think Fujifilm is embarking on a losing strategy that wouldn't interest them, right?

Dan


Is this sort of the same as a not to be mentioned ( but can be easily deduced ) member jumping into discussions on Zeiss lenses or Sony cameras and redicuing members in those discussions.

My, my how things look so different when on the other side of the fence. :-)

Oh...and by the way, one can still have an interest in MF cameras and still not agree with Fuji's decisions.
Of course YMMV...


Edited on Sep 05, 2016 at 02:12 AM · View previous versions



Sep 05, 2016 at 02:10 AM
Pavel
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chez wrote:
But how big is the MF digital market? New camera(s) plus a whole suite of lenses need to be developed for a market that the latest full frame cameras from Canon and Sony are pushing into. With Pentax and Hassy already in the MF market, it's not like Fuji will be walking into an untouched market.


my feel, especially when drinking beer , is that the reason the medium format market is small, is that the prices are somewhat boutique prices and the insane costs keep the market tiny. A sub $6000 dollar body would completely change the dynamics of the market, seeing that we are already at near that level with many FF DSLR's.

In the early days sensors cost a lot relative to the rest of the camera. I don't believe that is much true anymore. Moore's law and vertical integration has, I suspect, made the cost of a sensor only slightly more expensive, as one goes up in size. I imagine that the cost of the sensor relative to the rest of the body is not nearly as high as it was, say, ten years ago.

I think that there is the real possibility of a price earthquake for medium format digital and Fuji is exactly the kind of company that is capable of a disruption and complete surprise. Build it, they will come, if the wallet does not suffer a heart attack.

The lenses, however, I suspect will have prices that hurt. Oh wait ... they already do with FF.



Edited on Sep 05, 2016 at 02:13 AM · View previous versions



Sep 05, 2016 at 02:11 AM
TheEmrys
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I don't see it as a huge issue. Say a solid 90mm, 135mm, a mid-range to long macro, and then something in the 180-200mm range. These lenses cannot be small. And for MF, they would be pretty unique. The closest analog would be the Mamiya 7, which had pretty small lenses. However, the lenses could be even smaller as 44x33 is decently smaller than the 6x7 of the Mamiya 7.

chez wrote:
Yes, I'd love to see the usability of an Xt2 with a huge lens hanging off it...sort of defeats what the xt2 is all about. Can't see the being a very popular combo.





Sep 05, 2016 at 02:13 AM
Pavel
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I too btw, would prefer best a Rangefinder design. It's been a long while since I've had any serious GAS. A rangefinder, especially if in a square format, that would have me selling all my extra organs.


Sep 05, 2016 at 02:15 AM
Pavel
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Many of the mamiya 645 lenses are in the same size ballparks as Nikon or Cannon FF lenses. Rangefinder's also, it should be added, have an advantage where wide angle lenses can be made smaller and of higher quality due to flange depth allowing completely different design possibilities. I'm drooling now. This better not be a rumour only!


Sep 05, 2016 at 02:18 AM
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