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Archive 2016 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!

  
 
gschlact
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!


7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!

There are physical limitations to a camera's AF screen based on aperture and other physical attributes. Results can range from proper af lock, slow or intermittent lock, or no lock at all.

I have asked around and seemed nobody had actually tested the 7dii's AF at f8 with various single AF points in One Shot AF.

Today, i tested it myself.

I used an f4 lens + a Kenko 2x TC that had 3 pins taped to make it non-reporting with wide open f8, But seen by the camera as f4. (It it reported, the firmware would prevent it from trying to AF.) As you can guess by the title, I got every individual AF point to accurately lock AF with no real noticeable speed degredation (beside normal TC observations).

Thus, 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away should Canon Want to let us have it!!! (Settings were 1/100 and iso 2000, so not too bright)

Let's keep our fingers crossed!

Guy
gschlact



Jul 27, 2016 at 08:07 PM
gschlact
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!


I just tested some more with 5 stops lower light with good results. Slower to lock but no hunting, and still got the af beep.

Iso 16,000 1/25 and of course the f8 so abour EV 3-4. Probably wouldn't work much lower. I had trouble seeing the pillow pattern in the VF. The Center point was no better /faster than either of 4 edges. Pretty encouraging.

People that asked for the lower light must remember, we are talking about using a TC which typically implies outdoors. But, how often do we have enough high ISO noise tolerance, and achieve necessary Shutter speed, while using f8? Evening shooting? Are you going to go thru the trouble (tripod, extend reach with TC, f8, and still shoot if the available light only supports 1/25?



Jul 27, 2016 at 09:31 PM
Max_Pain
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!


Ha. I thought I would come in here and see some rumored release coming or something like that. No, you're just saying all it would take is a firmware update. You do realize Canon can choose not to implement it, and that pretty much kills it? As far as I know, Magic Lantern can't mess with the firmware at that level, and there's no other group messing around with these cameras. So it's either Canon or bust. Or am I missing something here?

Edited on Jul 28, 2016 at 08:12 AM · View previous versions



Jul 28, 2016 at 08:09 AM
gocolts
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!


I believe AF at f/8 was added to the 5D3 via a FW update, correct?

So, IMO it's not unreasonable to believe the 7D2's AF can be enhanced via a FW update.

Maybe that's just wishful thinking on my part as my 7D2 & 100-400 v2 are used often with a 1.4TC.



Jul 28, 2016 at 08:11 AM
gschlact
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!




Max_Pain wrote:
Ha. I thought I would come in here and see some rumored release coming or something like that. No, you're just saying all it would take is a firmware update. You do realize Canon can choose not to implement it, and that pretty much kills it? As far as I know, Magic Lantern can't mess with the firmware at that level, and there's no other group messing around with these cameras. So it's either Canon or bust. Or am I missing something here?

Correct, I am saying it is possible. If they don't include it in a fw update, my testing shows that people can tape their pins and get good results using any of the af points! Without this testing, most would not have assumed it was possible.



Jul 28, 2016 at 08:21 AM
msalvetti
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!


Thanks for testing, Guy. I had wondered about this myself, although I'm more interested in AI Servo performance.

I brought this up in another thread somewhere, and Geoff (arbitrage) said he had tried it with the 100-400II and taped pins on a 1.4xTC, and it was a no-go. See this tread, bottom of the first page to the top of the second: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1393749/0

I haven't upgraded my 100-400 verI yet, so I haven't tested myself.

A native f/4 lens is probably going to behave differently than something like the 100-400, so I think it is going to depend.....

Mark



Jul 28, 2016 at 11:49 AM
gschlact
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!


Mark,
I checked out the thread you mentioned. Arbitrage's answer /comment toward the top of page 2 was not clear imho. I didn't find it clear but believe his "no go" cmoment was wrt using the 1.4x taped with the Sigma, which we know makes f9 not f8, as well as his later comment about taping non raised pins. It is the left most 3 pins needing the tape as you look at the TC's side that attaches to the lens. I believe the non raised pins (I don't have my Canon TC with me) are the right 3 that he might have taped.

So, I would love for someone with a 1.4x+ 100-400, or 2x+f4 big white to please try taping and let us know how many af points work for you. I don't have any for f5.6 L glass otherwise I would do it.

Guy



Jul 29, 2016 at 12:06 AM
Paul Mo
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!


And Canon's reason for not enabling it is...?


Jul 29, 2016 at 12:34 AM
msalvetti
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!


gschlact wrote:
Mark,
I checked out the thread you mentioned. Arbitrage's answer /comment toward the top of page 2 was not clear imho. I didn't find it clear but believe his "no go" cmoment was wrt using the 1.4x taped with the Sigma, which we know makes f9 not f8, as well as his later comment about taping non raised pins. It is the left most 3 pins needing the tape as you look at the TC's side that attaches to the lens. I believe the non raised pins (I don't have my Canon TC with me) are the right 3 that he
...Show more
Yes, I agree, it isn't clear if Arbitrage is talking about taping pins with the 100-400II or the Sigma. Tony was talking about not taping pins with the 100-400II + 1.4xIII because he got the center point plus helpers, which was enough. So I interpreted Arbitrage was also referring to the 100-400II.

Anyway, I doubt that Canon would enable multi-point f/8 on the 7DII if it will only work well in One Shot. I was able to get One Shot f/8 with the 7D and taped pins, but I didn't find it good enough to be useful, and we didn't get that feature with the big 7D firmware update.

I also haven't seen many people raving about the 80D f/8 multi-point AF accuracy. I don't think it works that well, at least in servo mode. So I don't think we can expect much of out the 7DII, even if somehow enabled.

I could be wrong - after all, the 1Dx got f/8 focus via firmware (remember when the 1Dx was released, all the angst about losing f/8 AF?), and I think the 5DIII as well. But even the 1Dx will f/8 focus only with the center point.

I'm not holding my breath.....

Mark



Jul 29, 2016 at 10:40 AM
howard
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!


Unless I'm missing something, this does not prove anything -- it's long been known that taped pins and third party TCs that don't report the actual aperture will allow the bodies (not just the 7D II) AF at the actual aperture of f/8 or even smaller.

I'm not saying that a firmware upgrade won't achieve this -- it should. I'm just saying that that decision is entirely Canon's, this test does not persuade them one way or the other.



Jul 29, 2016 at 10:56 AM
Ian.Dobinson
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!


gocolts wrote:
I believe AF at f/8 was added to the 5D3 via a FW update, correct?

.


yes . but only for the center point i think .



Jul 29, 2016 at 11:15 AM
Ian.Dobinson
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!



Correct, I am saying it is possible. If they don't include it in a fw update, my testing shows that people can tape their pins and get good results using any of the af points! Without this testing, most would not have assumed it was possible.



its been pretty much like that going back ages on most canon bodies . I had a 40D 70-300 IS (not the L) combo that I could slap a 2x on (f11) and get it to AF pretty well . the same combo on my 7D would AF on all points EXCEPT the centre point .

thing is not really wether f8 lens / TC combos would work but that Canon just won't release it . saying features like that are held back for marketing reasons does probably have some merit . But I also think in a lot of cases Canon won't release stuff that they can't be sure would work well in not of situations .
you only need a certain combo to hunt and or fail its AF in less than cave like conditions and the way the internet is that could be become a huge deal .

just saying



Jul 29, 2016 at 11:24 AM
kosin
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!



I think it is more of a hardware limitation, to enable all AF points at f/8, and not just a firmware update.

Firmware update could bring a 30fps 4K video but not for 29 minutes. Maybe just for short, 3-5 minute clips (again hardware/cooling limitations) but I don't think that Canon will enable it risking overheating and eventual repairs.



Jul 29, 2016 at 11:50 AM
gschlact
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!


Ian.Dobinson wrote:
its been pretty much like that going back ages on most canon bodies . I had a 40D 70-300 IS (not the L) combo that I could slap a 2x on (f11) and get it to AF pretty well . the same combo on my 7D would AF on all points EXCEPT the centre point .

thing is not really wether f8 lens / TC combos would work but that Canon just won't release it . saying features like that are held back for marketing reasons does probably have some merit . But I also think in a lot of
...Show more

Ian,
THe purpose of this whole post was to indicate that F8 on the 7Dii looks like it physically works with a non-reporting TC. So, iF Canon doesn't release it, people now know to at least try it as it should work for them. NOTE: f6.3+TC 1.4x = F9, and thus out of the scope of my testing.




Jul 29, 2016 at 01:37 PM
EB-1
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!


Paul Mo wrote:
And Canon's reason for not enabling it is...?


The geometry is not good, so AF is spotty. Historically the Canon philosophy is that AF should be more reliable, specially for moving subjects or in less than contrasty light.
I've had mediocre results with the taped pins theory. Obviously if one is at the maximum reach and needs a TC for something better than nothing, the option should be available. Ideally there should be a menu item such as Extend AF Aperture. It's like the "H1" or "H2" ISO settings that produce terribly noisy images, but are better than nothing.

EBH



Jul 29, 2016 at 06:34 PM
mgrabow250
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!


When I first got the 7d mkII I tried the kenko 1.4x. It allowed all focus points to be used with my 100-400. It wouldn't work with my 400 5.6 at all. So I didn't use it anymore.

I just taped the last three pins on the right (non raised) on my canon 1.4x II. With my 100-400 (original) I get all the focus points working. The same also with my 400 5.6.

In room light using all 65 focus points I can focus on the door knob and move the camera left to right and the focus points continually change to keep focus on the door knob. I only use AI Servo. I'll try shooting skimmers this weekend to check focus.

One problem is setting the mfa adjustment. The camera doesn't see the tc so wants to use the settings for the lense by itself.

Mike



Jul 29, 2016 at 08:04 PM
gschlact
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!




mgrabow250 wrote:
When I first got the 7d mkII I tried the kenko 1.4x. It allowed all focus points to be used with my 100-400. It wouldn't work with my 400 5.6 at all. So I didn't use it anymore.

I just taped the last three pins on the right (non raised) on my canon 1.4x II. With my 100-400 (original) I get all the focus points working. The same also with my 400 5.6.

In room light using all 65 focus points I can focus on the door knob and move the camera left to right and the focus points continually change to
...Show more

I thought it would be valuable clarifying info on taping the pins. Proper point of reference is necessary, or a picture to male it clear. :-)
Those people saying the non raised right side are taping o the lens, versus taping left most 3 pins on the TC side that connects to the lens.

Photo and description: http://www.michaelfurtman.com/taping_the_pins.htm



Jul 29, 2016 at 09:33 PM
mgrabow250
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!


When I'm saying the three right pins I have the converter rotated so that the pins are on the bottom. Your picture shows the converter with the pins rotated to the top. We are taping the same pins.

I now need to test outdoors to see how fast and accurate the focus is.

Thanks for bringing up these topics. I'm learning a lot from your post.

Mike



Jul 29, 2016 at 09:46 PM
Sy Sez
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!


They've implemented it in the new 1DX-ll:

"Wildlife and sports photographers often have to use super telephoto lenses with extenders to get closer to their subjects. This limits the AF usability because of the resulting f/8 aperture setting. The 1-point f/8 AF compatibility on the 1D X has been significantly increased to a maximum of 61 points2 on the EOS-1D X Mark II, with 21 cross-type points. The Zone AF - which makes subject tracking easy - and EOS iTR AF provides powerful subject tracking support even with super telephoto and extender shooting.

2 The number of focusing points and cross-type focusing points vary depending on the lens used"

Doesn't seem unreasonable for a 7D-ll "upgrade"??



Jul 30, 2016 at 01:47 PM
mgrabow250
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · 7dii all pts f8 is only a firmware upgrade away!


gschlact,

Went out today with the 7d mkII, 100-400 mkI and canon 1.4x II with pins taped. The sky was overcast but enough light. I was using ai servo. All the autofocus points were available. The points jumped around as I tracked flying birds. The problem was that the focus kept hunting before locking. This hunting was 2 to 3 seconds before focus would lock. Once locked it would keep the bird in focus and the picture would be sharp. I tried single focus points. It was the same no matter which focus point I used. Center focus point was just as bad if not worse trying to lock focus. I switched to one shot with the same bad results. After 10 minutes I removed the tape and the camera no longer hunted for focus. I would have thought that the center point would not have any problems. The combination was being recognized as 5.6 when the pins were taped. The birds I was shooting were Egrets, Terns and Ibis.

Mike



Jul 30, 2016 at 06:09 PM
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