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Archive 2016 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?

  
 
rscheffler
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?


rabbitmountain wrote:
@ KKFung: could you elaborate? Is there a good reason to take my eye away from the viewfinder and use liveview for weddings? Is it because it will automatically track the bride while she walks?

Thanks all.
Kind regards, Ralph

KKFung wrote:
Ralph, this is what I thought and the DPAF can fix some operational issue when AF on the area outside the center area when using those super fast lens


I recently got a 1DXII....

The DPAF is very responsive and sometimes feels similarly fast to standard AF. However, I don't believe it will subject track unless you're shooting video. Also, there is always a ~1 second 'blackout/delay' after shooting one or several frames in live view before the 1DXII's live view resumes. Other than that, yes, in static tricky wedding lighting situations, I have found the 1DXII's DPAF to be very reliable. In respect to standard AF performance, yes, I noticed the 1DXII is more confident and able to better lock focus in very dark situations than the 1DX. That said, it's not perfect either, just incrementally better.

At one wedding in particular, where they were using a lot of LED light strings for effect, the anti-flicker feature was very useful at getting images with the LEDs fully on (these types of LEDs flicker like fluorescent lights flicker). I was also shooting with my 1DX and with it, the LEDs were often in the off period of their cycle. Be aware though that the anti-flicker feature will change the shutter release timing and fps rate to suit getting optimum results with the lights fully cycled on. This can affect release timing and will affect fps rate (reduce it). But, if timing is not super critical and you need the best possible files in respect to white balance and exposure consistency, it is a very useful feature.

I'm curious what types of sports you plan to shoot? I do a range of them, from professional leagues for one type of client, to youth sports for on-location print sales clients. Each has a different approach to shooting. High fps is valuable for the pro sports to better catch peak action moments, along with a good selection of star players. With youth sports, the priority is on good coverage of all players with a reasonable amount of images. As a result, I typically shoot the 1DX at 6 fps for youth sports, otherwise it's too easy to come back with far too many nearly identical images from short bursts of each player, from which it just makes it more confusing for parents to choose their favorite image(s) and makes everyone spend a lot more time wading through a set of images while trying to find images of their child. What I'm getting at is 5DIII at 6fps might be good enough for some types of sports. But it will depend on what you're shooting.

Lastly, the post production quality of 1DXII raw files is somewhat different from recent Canon files such as the 5DIII and 1DX. It's difficult to say what it is, but it is different. The guy I shoot weddings for is also a Canon shooter and uses 5DIII and 1DX. We both demoed the 1DXII for a couple weeks before I bought mine. Recently he's been going through the weddings and engagement shoots done with the 5DIII and 1DXII combos and has remarked that he's had to make noticeable adjustments to his post production routines to better match files from the two cameras. While there were some minor differences between 5DIII and 1DX files in respect to color and tonality, they've been easy for him to match and manage and are nowhere as noticeable as the difference with the 1DXII. I haven't had a lot of experience with the 5DS files, so not sure where they sit in comparison to the 5DIII, 1DX and 1DXII, but it could end up being a similar situation where you'll have to do a bit of extra work in post with the 1DXII files to match color and tonality.

My initial inclination was to say get the 1DX and save some money. I don't think you will see a significant difference between it and the 1DX in high ISO applications. Where I'm less sure is the value of anti-flicker for sports in typical non-pro sports venues. It could be very useful, especially if you have to deliver as good as possible Jpeg files during and/or immediately after events.



Jul 20, 2016 at 12:37 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?


Dear Paul and Ron,

Thank you for your in depth analyses of my situation. Very very interesting. To elaborate a bit on what I plan to do:
I've never been a sports shooter except for the occasional sports games of my kids or friends. But I recently tried to shoot a women's basketball game (not pros, but pretty high league) and the team was very enthusiastic about my images. Also, I liked shooting that game a lot. It's a new challenge for me and so far it's been great. About six months ago I tried a used 1D4 and shot some local sports and I did an assignment shooting playing dogs for a dog interest group. When I experienced the opportunities 10 fps could bring I was in love. There can be day and night difference between four consecutive images in a 10 fps burst. From that day I knew I wanted to explore the world of sports and fast action shooting.

I returned the 1D4, mainly because the AF system was not working like it should, but in hindsight I now know I really want to stick with dual FF bodies.

I am open to any kind of assignments, but I am realist enough to know I need to learn first. For events and portraits I'm OK this is known territory. I have a studio (all elinchrom) with multiple flash heads and modifiers. My newly acquired 5DsR is just the ticket for portrait sessions that result in large prints, I did a 6 ft wide print recently using all 8688 pixels and it was fantastic. But for sports and action I start at the bottom.

I know it'll be either 1Dx or 1Dx2. I have been thinking after seeing the replies above and suddenly I thought that it's quite possible that I will eventually do want to get a 1Dx2 in a couple of years. If I get a 1Dx now I pay about 3~3.5k. If I upgrade in 3 years I get 1.5k for the x and pay another 4K for a good used x2. In total it's still over 5k that I will pay. The money is already in the bank and the interest rates are about zero. If I should leap for a 1Dx2 now immediately then I have a new camera instead of twice a used one and get shooting the better camera for the first three years as a bonus. At a little extra cost.

Will need to chew on that.

Thanks for all your input. Highly appreciated.

Afterthought: I should stress that having the best possible AF in low light conditions for my primes at events is also a consideration.

Also on topic of post processing I notice a substantial difference between my 5D 5D2 5D3 (all similar PP) and the new 5DsR. I have had it for a couple of weeks now and I find it a little hard to deal with the blacks. By default, the 5DsR has strong blacks, apparently more contrast in the dark tones. I need to push pretty hard smetimes to get the texture back. Don't know if this is the "new" sensor processing but so far I'm not a big fan. Probably because I still have to find a way to sort this out while still my commercial shoots continue and I don't have much time to experiment. I'm a LR CC adapt, haven't tried dpp or other software yet. At least it would be nice if the combo would team up well. That said it's probably merely a matter of profiling the bodies well. But I've never had to do that so I'm not a profiling expert. Oh well, new challenge....



Jul 20, 2016 at 03:46 PM
wallstreetonei
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?


There is no question that LR 'crushes' the blacks with the 5DSR - fortunately, you can lift the shadows enough to get back some additional definition, unlike the 5D3, but while it is an improvement for sure, seriously, it still isn't a Sony sensor in this respect - i.e. you can do 3 Stops not 5 stops - after 3 it is not good - but compared to the 5D3 you get another stop so there is more info in there.

You compare the 5DSR to the 1Dx_II and all of a sudden you get 1 more stop in the shadows - i.e. 4 stops - and the default Profile within LR doesn't crush the blacks in the 1Dx_II like it does for the 5DSR.

I came into photography a little later so I grew up with the 5D3s, then added 7D2, then 5DSR, then 1Dx_II - so I can really see what has happened - and why I would recommend NOT buying any old Canon sensor - including the 1Dx - just wait until you have the funds and jump to Canon's new sensors - they are better - not Sony yet but they really have added 1 full stop at base ISO - the 5DSR gets 'most' of it but when the 5D4 comes out, I really believe there will be a new line drawn in the sand that everything before the 1DX_II an 5D4 is 'old' Canon and everything after is 'new' - so if you are going to buy an 'old' make sure you do not overpay for it - and I would wait for actual 5D4s to hit the stores because I think used prices are going to get decimated on ALL older Canons.



Jul 20, 2016 at 06:38 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?


Thanks, I see your point. Wow, 1Dx is in the "older canon" category. Where have I been ? I could certainly hold off my purchase until the 5D4 dxo results come in. And maybe as a consequence pay less for a used 1Dx. But really, this seems to be putting so much emphasis on the 1Dx vs 1Dx2 sensor difference at base ISO as a decisive factor, whereas my perception is that the improvements of the x2 are just as much in the AF performance, low light AF accuracy, video and flicker mode departments. Do you really think the public will draw this "line in the sand" like you do? Well maybe they might. This may sound strange but I've learned to expose for correct blacks ever since I got the 5D and then the 5D2 so I usually don't lift the shadows much, mostly max half a stop or 1.5 in rare cases. I tested the 1Dx for a week and found it to be similar to my then 5D3 (well a little better noise performance) but that 1Dx sensor seemed ok for me at first glance.

Yet I already am a little spoiled by the low ISO DR improvements that came with my 5DsR. It certainly seems appealing to be able to meter for the highlights instead of the blacks knowing that the shadows can be pulled without penalty. This effectively increases the usable DR even though the de facto DR of the 1Dx and 1Dx2 (in a clipping test) seem to be very similar.

This leads me to believe that it is best to call my CPS rep and ask him to get me a 1Dx2 loaner as soon as he can lay his hands on one and in fact see for myself before making the decision. I had hoped this decision could have been more straightforward but oh well.... Let's do the testing for the hell of it .

Thanks, Ralph



Jul 20, 2016 at 07:56 PM
rscheffler
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?


I definitely suggest getting a 1DXII on loan from CPS. I did it and it confirmed to me that the camera is not a huge, revolutionary improvement, but it is still an improvement in a number of small, but useful facets.

On the point about sensor performance and dynamic range, it needs to be taken in context. The higher the ISO, the less dynamic range difference there will be between 'old' and 'new' Canon sensors. For your proposed indoor sports work, it's highly unlikely you'll see a significant sensor performance difference between the two. Sure, the 1DXII will probably be slightly better, but it won't be the considerable difference evident at ISO 100. At 1600 the two are less than a half-stop apart, according to DxO. They also measure the 1DXII's sensor as 1/3 stop less sensitive than the 1DX, which itself is 1/3 stop off 'true' ISO values (i.e. ISO 100 setting on the 1DX measures as 80 'real' ISO and 64 'real' ISO for 1DXII). Other considerations beyond just sensor performance will factor as much, or more, in a decision for or against the 1DX or 1DXII. That said, if you shoot a lot at lower ISOs, such as outdoor aspects of weddings, the 1DXII will allow a fair amount more flexibility in post than the 1DX. Yes, after a 2-3 stops push, low ISO 1DX shadow values will get quite noisy.

rabbitmountain wrote:
I know it'll be either 1Dx or 1Dx2. I have been thinking after seeing the replies above and suddenly I thought that it's quite possible that I will eventually do want to get a 1Dx2 in a couple of years. If I get a 1Dx now I pay about 3~3.5k. If I upgrade in 3 years I get 1.5k for the x and pay another 4K for a good used x2. In total it's still over 5k that I will pay. The money is already in the bank and the interest rates are about zero. If I should leap for
...Show more

This is a reason I bought a 1DXII now rather than wait until later in the year, or whenever. The price will not go down (wasn't this the topic of another thread?), nor is it likely to go up. So there's really no reason to wait, unless you need the money for something else. If you really want to save money on camera purchases, then you should buy at the end of a product cycle and/or buy the outgoing camera used when the new model becomes available in quantity. With the way the 1D product cycle is stretching out currently, you could be waiting until 2019 for the 1DXII to be phased out... And since it will be for your business, it's just one more thing you can depreciate against your business revenue.

I was somewhat surprised, but indeed the anti-flicker feature was immediately useful at improving image quality in some wedding situations. I expect it could be equally useful for some sports venues.

Something else to consider is you may be able to leverage the 1DXII's 4K video capability to help with some types of sports coverage. Rather than thinking about it as video, think of it as 30 or 60 fps 8MP stills capability, albeit Jpeg only. I'm not sure how it will work in poorly lit venues in respect to light cycling, and have yet to really test it in a proper sports environment, but it could be an effective solution to achieving consistent 'decisive moment' results. I have tested it on cars and cyclists on the street in front of my home and it was very easy to follow focus subjects with the DPAF and then immediately extract 8MP still frames from the video footage. No, the files won't look as nice as 20MP raw conversions, but for some situations, it will be more than good enough...



Jul 20, 2016 at 09:22 PM
KKFung
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?


rabbitmountain wrote:
Hi KKFung,
Thanks for explaining. The thing is that I've never really learned to like ,LV in fast paced shooting as my eyes need strong reading glasses so gong from the scene to the LCD and back is troublesome. I think I wish to stick with the viewfinder. Maybe for video the DPAF is a nice solution?
Kind regards, Ralph


Ralph, understand your situation, perhaps rent a 1Dx2 for a trail is worth for making the decision since the new body really have some new features which is quite useful that the previous model doesn't have. Furthermore, the video now become more user friendly which may change some people idea who never consider video taking during their still photograph



Jul 20, 2016 at 11:45 PM
Robin Smith
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?


Where I'm less sure is the value of anti-flicker for sports in typical non-pro sports venues. It could be very useful, especially if you have to deliver as good as possible Jpeg files during and/or immediately after events.

I'd rate it as nice to have, but not essential. As you say - the fps goes down, so in a fast moving situation you might miss a better shot than if it was switched off, although you would need some PP to fix the color.



Jul 21, 2016 at 12:31 PM
rscheffler
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?


The thing is it depends on the situation, and in some, it's not possible to fix it later in post. In the LED lighting situation I cited, at the one wedding, shooting without anti-flicker enabled would have resulted in a high percentage of images that could not have been fixed in post because the lights were often caught cycled off. This and some youth sports situations, I would argue delayed timing is less critical than getting an optimum exposure. At the wedding, the LED string lights were an integral aspect of the venue decor and the anti-flicker feature meant I didn't have to spray 'n pray to get a reasonable selection with the lights on. With youth sports, I'd rather miss peak action and get 'good enough' action while delivering optimum Jpegs that don't require additional PP prior to printing because it saves a lot of time on the backend. For higher-end/pro sports, however, I would want to catch peak action. But those events are also usually at better venues where light flicker is not typically a problem.


Jul 21, 2016 at 06:59 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?


All in all the anti flicker feature can be very useful. As I own a 5DsR I already have this technology at my disposal, albeit in a 5fps limited body. For youth indoor sports it will do fine. Now that I have fast cards the buffer issue has not come up much, if at all. Still if I'd own a 1D I would prefer to use that for sports in general.
I think I will simply ask for the 1Dx2 loaner when I go to a low lit gym and see how I like it. This is very good discussion, exactly on the points that are relevant to my shooting. Thanks folks



Jul 22, 2016 at 02:57 PM
3CeeMedia
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?


How can I become a member of your family. .


Jul 22, 2016 at 09:20 PM
3CeeMedia
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?


I had a clear plan before reading this thread. I have a 7dII for bird photography and sports. I use a 5DII for events and portraits. I was going to sell my 5dII and try to get a deal on a 5Dsr when the 5DIV Came out. Thinking that cropping the 5DSr would work better for stationary birds, events, and portraits. 7DII for BIF and backup camera. If the 5DIV has a better sensor and ups the fps I might reconsider. Thoughts?


Jul 22, 2016 at 09:37 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?


Lots of thoughts on your question in the "getting really impatient" 5D4 topic. I have no 7D2 so cannot comment. 5DsR is excellent for what you mention. Even BIF. 5D4? Better DR less pixels possibly better AF. Depends on what you want. Probably not 10fps.
I have longed for a 5D3 for years while shooting a 5D2. Finally got a good deal on a new one but sold after 2 months and got a 5DsR. I lost interest in the 5D1-2-3-4 line.



Jul 22, 2016 at 10:29 PM
EB-1
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?


3CeeMedia wrote:
I had a clear plan before reading this thread. I have a 7dII for bird photography and sports. I use a 5DII for events and portraits. I was going to sell my 5dII and try to get a deal on a 5Dsr when the 5DIV Came out. Thinking that cropping the 5DSr would work better for stationary birds, events, and portraits. 7DII for BIF and backup camera. If the 5DIV has a better sensor and ups the fps I might reconsider. Thoughts?


7D II and 5DsR are similar in the sensor, so it depends if you need the better high ISO capability of a lower-res FF body as an alternative. The two camera jump from the 5D II to the 5D IV will be a substantial one. If I could chose only between the 5DsR and any other Canon body, that's what I would live with.

EBH



Jul 23, 2016 at 12:16 AM
3CeeMedia
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?


This was very informative. I bought the 5DII used and hate the autofocus. The pix are fine but miss a lot of shots for weddings. Paying the extra money to get longer useful life is probably a good idea. Thanks everyone. Also surprised no one mentioned buffer size and hard disk space as limitations of the 5DSr.


Jul 23, 2016 at 06:30 AM
rabbitmountain
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?


Really overblown. Just get fast big cards (I have 64gb) and hard drive space is cheap. I worried a lot before I bought the camera but really it's no problem unless you wish to shoot past pace sports.

Edited on Jul 23, 2016 at 03:43 PM · View previous versions



Jul 23, 2016 at 01:17 PM
Imagemaster
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?


3CeeMedia wrote:
Also surprised no one mentioned buffer size and hard disk space as limitations of the 5DSr.


Neither are limiting for me. As for shooting weddings, I don't think the buffer size would be a problem.



Jul 23, 2016 at 01:57 PM
Robin Smith
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?


The thing is it depends on the situation, and in some, it's not possible to fix it later in post.

Agree, but of course with flicker switched on you don't know what other shots you are missing, so of course you won't have to fix them in post. With a non-flicker body, or when it is switched off, then you can always just ignore those with the slightly off color balance and pick the others which will probably be the only ones recorded when flicker is switched on. This is why I say it is nice to have, but not essential.



Jul 25, 2016 at 10:46 AM
rabbitmountain
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?


Robin Smith wrote:
Agree, but of course with flicker switched on you don't know what other shots you are missing, so of course you won't have to fix them in post. With a non-flicker body, or when it is switched off, then you can always just ignore those with the slightly off color balance and pick the others which will probably be the only ones recorded when flicker is switched on. This is why I say it is nice to have, but not essential.


I see your pint. But if your shutter speed is high enough, most images will be unusable as shot. 20-30% even unfixable because they are way too dark and ISO is set to high values in gyms. To catch a "winner" in gym action using say 1/1500s without flicker mode on is quite possible, but I doubt that you get more winners than with flicker mode on and recording less images.

But then again statistics was never my strong point at school.



Jul 25, 2016 at 01:10 PM
dehowie
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?


I have been more than happy with the 5Dsr and your ability to play heavily with the files.
From an High ISO view I don't hesitate cranking it up. As my normal upload size us 5000 pixels at 6400 ISO the final files look great.
Having recently gone XMk2 from Mk1 a few observations of mine.
In poor light shooting wide open ie 1.2-2.8 you will get an improved hit rate.
Normal lighting no difference.
ISO's stuff is similar but better blacks on Mk2 including lifting ability.
In general if I had may Mk2's stolen be very happy to shoot again with the XMk1.
However the numerous little tweaks plus the AF in video plus F8 to me was worth it.
I would not hesitate in buying a good quality 1Dx for wedding work or any conceivable sports action.
The 1Dx files are extremely workable and I can't think of a situation where it could not get the job done beautifully.
Behind the 1DxMk2 I would still rate it ahead of the D5 as the second best action camera in the world.
Nothing else can touch them for Af accuracy and dependability.




Jul 25, 2016 at 09:20 PM
big country
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · 5DsR+1Dx or 5DsR+1Dx2 for my shooting?


i'd get one of those used 1dx's that are occasionally listed for 2500-3000.


Jul 25, 2016 at 09:23 PM
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