Home · Register · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username  

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Lighting & Studio Techniques | Join Upload & Sell

  

Archive 2016 · Are grids necessary?

  
 
silvermesa1
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Are grids necessary?


Considering different brands of light modifiers for on location outdoors and indoors. Are grids necessary or do you use a gobo/flag instead? What and when do you use them?

Just looking at photographs I do seem to like elinchroms modifiers, especially the octas.




Jul 02, 2016 at 04:42 PM
dmward
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Are grids necessary?


With soft boxes grids help to focus the light and reduce spill. Thus they are necessary only if you want to reduce spill and make the falloff zone narrow.

Grids on metal reflectors are helpful to narrow the beam and minimize the falloff zone.

Again its a matter of what you want to accomplish with your lighting.

They are a tool; useful but not essential.



Jul 02, 2016 at 05:12 PM
rico
Online
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Are grids necessary?


I prefer flags, but I shoot in a studio and have the space to deploy them. Flags are more flexibly positioned: next to the light fixture to suppress stray light, behind the subject to eliminate b/g glare on the subject, next to the taking lens to eliminate light from the sources. When shooting shiny objects (my specialty), flags do not impose a grid pattern on large speculars. Flags are also dirt cheap. Meanwhile, grids win for easy transport, tight spaces, and wind resistance.


Jul 02, 2016 at 05:35 PM
Paulthelefty
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Are grids necessary?


IF you don't know, you probably don't need them... When you do need them you will know it's time.

Paul



Jul 02, 2016 at 08:35 PM
nolaguy
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Are grids necessary?


Good lord.



Jul 02, 2016 at 09:00 PM
silvermesa1
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Are grids necessary?


Paulthelefty wrote:
IF you don't know, you probably don't need them... When you do need them you will know it's time.

Paul


I understand it sounds like a simplistic question. However, since I have never used any brand of modifiers before it might be a reasonable question. For example, Elinchrom softboxes have few grids available and the one's that are available are quite expensive. Is it reasonable to buy into this brand of softboxes? Should a person look at other brands that have grids readily available or could you just flag the Elinchrom boxes?

I understand there are other nice brands that have grids available. For some reason I seen to navigate towards the look that is achieved with the Elinchrom boxes.



Jul 02, 2016 at 10:01 PM
Paulthelefty
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Are grids necessary?


I was not trying to be snarky, although looking back, I can see how it may be interpreted that way.

I really think it is kinda like reading about vs doing. You can read everything about driving a car, but until you actually do it, you can't really "get it." but once you do, (like riding a bike) you REALLY do get it.

I think doing is the best way to see if you want or need grids or any other modifiers. Elinchrom is good solid stuff, but a 'look' is not necessarily going to be ascribed to a brand...

Paul



Jul 03, 2016 at 12:52 AM
nolaguy
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Are grids necessary?


silvermesa1 wrote:
I understand it sounds like a simplistic question. However, since I have never used any brand of modifiers before it might be a reasonable question. For example, Elinchrom softboxes have few grids available and the one's that are available are quite expensive. Is it reasonable to buy into this brand of softboxes? Should a person look at other brands that have grids readily available or could you just flag the Elinchrom boxes?

I understand there are other nice brands that have grids available. For some reason I seen to navigate towards the look that is achieved with the Elinchrom boxes.


Good morning, John,

Your question is entirely reasonable and it could be said such questions are one of the cornerstones of FM. No apologies necessary.

I'm an Elinchrom guy - and a big reason is their softboxes. Many accomplished photographers think highly of them and while slightly pricey, in my opinion they hit a sweet spot of value. You can spend a lot more and probably get slightly better boxes but it definitely becomes a matter of diminishing returns per dollar spent.

That said, there are a few things I wish they did differently. Their products are solid, but Elinchrom isn't perfect.


Grids. It's curious that Elinchrom offers so few grids/eggcrates for their softboxes - and you're right, they are costly. I have one for my 35x43 (I think?) box but only because it came with a combo purchase I made off the B/S board. I've wanted grids for all my boxes but keep avoiding the decision because they do seem so bloody expensive.

Certainly eggcrates will give you a measure of inherent control that's appealing but it's useful to understand what they will and won't provide. A flag will be better at almost completely shutting off light spill at a given angle based on its size and placement, but the flag doesn't constrict the "beam" ...it just creates a wall. An eggcrate/grid can minimize light spill in general, and thus, for example, may more easily help control unintended reflected light as opposed to just keeping the light off your background.

The flag vs grid uses are similar, but not at all identical.


Lastly, I'm pretty sure an eggcrate is an eggcrate for all intended purposes. The variables would be the size of the openings and the depth of the grid. Assuming those dimensions are similar, I wouldn't hesitate to rig a no-name brand eggcrate to my Elinchrom boxes. You might want to shop no-name brands for less expensive options.


Regards,

Chuck



Jul 03, 2016 at 01:21 AM
leethecam
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Are grids necessary?


You get slightly different results with flags / grids.

Obviously both are for light control and you can often flag off stray light with something big enough and positioned well. The beauty with a flag is that you can control light in one specific direction whilst leaving everything else unaffected.

A grid will uniformly control light in all directions which can also be useful if you're trying to reduce bounced light from nearby walls. A grid is compact and is a quick and easy way of control.

Flags have flexibility in that they can be positioned. The downside is that where you may want them is right where you need to shoot, and of course they're taking up space and an extra stand.

A grid controls light by the size / depth of each grid square. So if you want a tighter grid or looser grid, then you're going to need to spend more pennies. Beware the cheap fabric grids that don't hold straight or have few squares to their area. These will often be ineffective. Lighttools make the best fabric grids - not cheap, but the best.

Something that is often overlooked with a grid is that is also changes the nature of light output - particularly with softlights. You will find that the "wrap" of light on your subject changes because of how the grid directs light forward and prevents light from the side of the softbox from interacting with light from the other side of the softbox. So you'll most likely end up with a slightly harder source of light on your subject. Ratios will remain largely the same but shadows will have less fill due to reduction of light scatter.

Also remember that with a grid, any reflectors used will probably receive less light because you are restricting light fall off so they're probably getting less to reflect with.

Both grids and flags have their uses. I find it best to have both in my tool kit, depending on the type of light I want to output.



Jul 03, 2016 at 01:25 AM
rico
Online
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Are grids necessary?


I'll leave the grid demo to someone else, but here is my demo of flag usage. First, the result:



Lighting scheme is based on work by Baroque painter Velázquez: a relatively soft 'window light", and no fill. The setup has the subject sandwiched between a pair of 2x4 flags:



A single, dished light is employed, and it bounces off 3x4 foamcore to create the key. The rightmost flag keeps light off the back of subject's head, and also prevents flaring in the lens. This arrangement generates a lot of ambient light that needs to be controlled. The leftmost flag eliminates wall bounce that would create unwanted fill. Ambient from above is used as a hair light, but is reduced by a double scrim. This kind of light shaping cannot be achieved with grids, but is easy with the right mix of panels in the inventory (and a flag is just a panel with an opaque cover). My flags are premade by Matthews, and use the standard Hollywood mounting pin. If I needed to grid a softbox, I would probably fit a grid to a panel, mount the panel to a stand, and then roll over to the SB. Grip gear is handy like that.



Jul 03, 2016 at 02:15 AM
rico
Online
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Are grids necessary?


I'll leave the grid demo to someone else, but here is my demo of flag usage. First, the result:



Lighting scheme is based on work by Baroque painter Velázquez: a relatively soft '"window light", and no fill. The setup has the subject sandwiched between a pair of 2x4 flags:



A single, dished light is employed, and it bounces off 3x4 foamcore to create the key. The rightmost flag keeps light off the back of subject's head, and also prevents flaring in the lens. This arrangement generates a lot of ambient light that needs to be controlled. The leftmost flag eliminates wall bounce that would create unwanted fill. Ambient from above is used as a hair light, but is reduced by a double scrim. This kind of light shaping cannot be achieved with grids, but is easy with the right mix of panels in the inventory (and a flag is just a panel with an opaque cover). My flags are premade by Matthews, and use the standard Hollywood mounting pin. If I needed to grid a softbox, I would probably fit a grid to a panel, mount the panel to a stand, and then roll the stand over to the SB. Grip gear is handy like that.



Jul 03, 2016 at 02:16 AM
dmward
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Are grids necessary?


Nice demo of flagging but I wonder if, practically speaking, very much the same lighting could have been provided with a large softbox in the position of the bounce card. The mention of ambient suggests a constant light source which, in a studio with light walls does encourage light scattering.


Jul 03, 2016 at 09:35 AM
rico
Online
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Are grids necessary?


Minus the hairlight effect, a softbox could serve, but I did arrive at this setup after exploring various creative results. Like a grid, a SB is a one-trick pony—although the trick is a good one. Flagging the wall bounce can be viewed as a form of subtractive lighting. I have used full-bore subtractive methods by filling the space with a single bare bulb (shielded), then flagging the ambient light via flags to give directionality on the subject. Despite the white walls, this requires about 1000Ws @ f/5.6, so not a task for Speedlights!


Jul 03, 2016 at 05:55 PM
Gregg Heckler
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Are grids necessary?


Rico,

It's nice to have all those flags for certain applications, and good demonstration, but your last image could have easily been shot with a single beauty dish and 25 degree grid. Grids are especially nice when you are looking for more contrast or for work in tight spaces to control spill. Similar to this one. The girls were standing about 2' from the BG.







Jul 03, 2016 at 08:20 PM





FM Forums | Lighting & Studio Techniques | Join Upload & Sell

    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username       Or Reset password



This site is protected by reCAPTCHA and the Google Privacy Policy and Terms of Service apply.