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Archive 2016 · 5DSR crop @ ISO 6400

  
 
gschlact
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · 5DSR crop @ ISO 6400




Imagemaster wrote:
So what? What does f2.8 & 1/400 got to do with f11 & 1/1000




Jun 11, 2016 at 07:16 AM
gschlact
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · 5DSR crop @ ISO 6400


Imagemaster wrote:
So what? What does f2.8 & 1/400 got to do with f11 & 1/1000


It has been shown that EV level also affects noise level for the same ISO value and proper exposure. I admit, I don't quite know why. So, yes you had very manageable noise, but if you were at 5 EV stops lower scenario I would expect a very different result in comparison. This is also I think why someone commented about the ss that seemed excessive for a perched bird.

You can prove it to yourself. Find something to.shoot in your home near a window and shoot it with only room lighting in evening, vs natural indirect light in day giving 5 EV or so difference.



Jun 11, 2016 at 07:20 AM
RustyBug
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · 5DSR crop @ ISO 6400


+1 @ EV difference.

But, since Tony doesn't shoot indoor high school gymnasiums ... he probably couldn't care less.

From a Sunny 16 perspective (EV 15)
ISO 6400 is = +6 stops above ISO 100
f11 (assuming f8 + 1.4X) is +1 stop above f16
1/1000 is -3 1/3 stops below 1/100

The net here is 3 2/3 EV variance from EV 15 or approximately EV 11 1/3

High school gymnasium @ same ISO 6400

ISO 6400 is = +6 stops above ISO 100
f2.8 is +5 stop above f16
1/400 is -2 stops below 1/100

The net here is 9 EV variance from EV 15 or approximately EV 6.

The amount of light has an impact on the amount of noise ... link to explanation needed (don't recall the good thread we had on the subject).

It does make a diff, but it may make no diff to Tony's application as he doesn't shoot in EV 6 territory.



Jun 11, 2016 at 08:41 AM
arbitrage
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · 5DSR crop @ ISO 6400


If anyone has a link to a good thread about the EV differences, please share. I've personally always thought and seen in my images that a given ISO value can look drastically different depending on the light levels. In good light ISO 6400 can look really good. In less light it can look much worse. I've just never read much about it.


Jun 11, 2016 at 08:52 AM
Imagemaster
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · 5DSR crop @ ISO 6400


gschlact wrote:
It has been shown that EV level also affects noise level for the same ISO value and proper exposure. I admit, I don't quite know why. So, yes you had very manageable noise, but if you were at 5 EV stops lower scenario I would expect a very different result in comparison. This is also I think why someone commented about the ss that seemed excessive for a perched bird.

You can prove it to yourself. Find something to.shoot in your home near a window and shoot it with only room lighting in evening, vs natural indirect light in day giving
...Show more

I am well aware that different lighting conditions give different noise results.

A shutter speed of 1/1000 is hardly excessive for a handheld shot with a 50MP camera at 560mm with a slight wind blowing and a subject that moves its head a lot. Why risk getting a blurred shot due to a shutter speed that is too slow?

Now if I was using a tripod and confident the subject and its perch would not move, I would shoot at ISO 200 and 1/30 sec. Not very realistic.



Jun 11, 2016 at 12:14 PM
Iwas joeking
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · 5DSR crop @ ISO 6400


Monito wrote:
Nope, it is shallow DoF. Look at the sharpness of the base of the beak and the cobweb on the twig.


I doubt it, f11 and the bird is small in the frame, should be lots of dof. Still looks good though.



Jun 11, 2016 at 01:50 PM
Monito
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · 5DSR crop @ ISO 6400


Iwas joeking wrote:
I doubt it, f11 and the bird is small in the frame, should be lots of dof. Still looks good though.


1) The focal length is very long.

2) The effective focal length is much longer after cropping. That affects DoF because of the enlargement factor.

3) The bird is a very small bird, so the photographer was close to it. Maybe 5 metres.

4) Do the math. To help you, here is a link. http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/dof-calculator.htm

Using full-frame, but using a conservative effective focal length of 1000 mm due to the extreme cropping (preserving less than half the linear dimension), f/11, the DoF is from 4.99 m to 5.01 m, and the calculator declares it as 0.01 m or 1 cm or about 3/8 inch.

That agrees with the visual inspection of the cropped image.



Jun 11, 2016 at 04:56 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · 5DSR crop @ ISO 6400


arbitrage wrote:
If anyone has a link to a good thread about the EV differences, please share. I've personally always thought and seen in my images that a given ISO value can look drastically different depending on the light levels. In good light ISO 6400 can look really good. In less light it can look much worse. I've just never read much about it.


Because in good light the shot or photon noise is the dominant form of noise and the SNR goes as log(sqrt(Photon flux)). At low light levels readout noise is the dominant form of noise. Usually if the lights good there aren't large areas of shadows where light levels would be low and readout noise would dominate, so even the high ISO shot can look good. A good test to try is photographing a well lit but smallish subject (say illuminated by shaft of sunlight) against a dark forest background say. The photon flux on the subject can be high and the SNR good, but the dominant background which is poorly illuminated may show high noise and low SNR. If you use low ISO then the forest can still look clean along with the subject, but at high ISO, the background noise can increase dramatically, while the well illuminated subject can still have good SNR.



Jun 11, 2016 at 05:34 PM
Iwas joeking
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · 5DSR crop @ ISO 6400




Monito wrote:
1) The focal length is very long.

2) The effective focal length is much longer after cropping. That affects DoF because of the enlargement factor.

3) The bird is a very small bird, so the photographer was close to it. Maybe 5 metres.

4) Do the math. To help you, here is a link. http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/dof-calculator.htm

Using full-frame, but using a conservative effective focal length of 1000 mm due to the extreme cropping (preserving less than half the linear dimension), f/11, the DoF is from 4.99 m to 5.01 m, and the calculator declares it as 0.01 m or 1 cm or about 3/8 inch.

That
...Show more

I'm not talking about tail to beak. You can see the loss of fine detail in the plane of focus. It's still perfectly acceptable, just there's a step down that happens with any camera.



Jun 11, 2016 at 06:09 PM
Imagemaster
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · 5DSR crop @ ISO 6400


With the gear I was using and the shooting distance, if the hummer was directly facing me, I would not have been able to get all of the the beak in-focus. Which is why I usually wait until their heads are turned sideways.


Jun 11, 2016 at 07:44 PM
Imagemaster
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · 5DSR crop @ ISO 6400


Only a slight crop here, but taken during a rain/windstorm at ISO 6400 at 1/160 sec. with 300 f2.8 IS & 2x TC.

Not the sharpest shot and a bit noisy, or rainy.







Nov 02, 2016 at 05:57 PM
Norman my love
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · 5DSR crop @ ISO 6400


arbitrage wrote:
If anyone has a link to a good thread about the EV differences, please share. I've personally always thought and seen in my images that a given ISO value can look drastically different depending on the light levels. In good light ISO 6400 can look really good. In less light it can look much worse. I've just never read much about it.
.

I know this is an old thread, but I couldn't help but notice how great that bird looked at ISO 6400.

Arbitrage - I don't know of a link, but I would like to read up more on the noise levels for this camera as well. I went out a couple days ago to see how good my manual focus adapted Contax 35-70 would work on the 5DSR. I ended up shooting later than planned (sunset) at ISO 1600 and could NOT believe the grainy noise. This camera in my opinion must be on a tripod unless there is plenty of light.




Nov 12, 2016 at 12:41 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · 5DSR crop @ ISO 6400


One of the keys to doing NR on high ISO images is to... not overdo it! The mistake too many photographers make is to try to eliminate the noise rather than reduce it. If you try to go that far you will lose more fine detail than you would like and you'll end up with (at least when viewed at 100%) that "plasticky"appearance. On the other hand, a small amount of noise, especially when its "grain"is as small as it is on modern high MP cameras, won't likely be visible at all — and if it is it may even have a positive effect.

I have to say that I don't shoot my 5DsR at 6400 much if at all, even when photographing birds. I regularly use 1600 and 3200 in low light conditions, especially if I'm trying to keep the shutter speed under control. Results are excellent though.

Dan



Nov 12, 2016 at 11:03 AM
Daniel Smith
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · 5DSR crop @ ISO 6400


Why not shoot with a lens that gives you the framing you want so you don't have to crop after the fact?


Nov 12, 2016 at 12:47 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · 5DSR crop @ ISO 6400


Daniel Smith wrote:
Why not shoot with a lens that gives you the framing you want so you don't have to crop after the fact?


Many of us use lenses that almost always give us the framing we want, but all of us sometimes encounter situations in which that isn't possible — the "right" framing might require a 1000mm lens, the subject may change or leave before we can change lenses, we may not want to change from the lens we are using for one shot and then change back and subsequently miss our primary subject...

There are tons of reasons.

The reality is that sometimes the best choice involves cropping. If so, it is advantageous to have a lot of pixels to work with.

Dan

Edited on Nov 12, 2016 at 02:28 PM · View previous versions



Nov 12, 2016 at 12:54 PM
Imagemaster
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · 5DSR crop @ ISO 6400


Daniel Smith wrote:
Why not shoot with a lens that gives you the framing you want so you don't have to crop after the fact?


As Dan said, there are tons of reasons.

How about you don't have the lens, or don't have it with you, when you take the shot?

How about because it is easier to track moving subjects when you have a larger FOV?

How about because the 5DSR is like having a longer focal-length lens on your camera, but not losing as much light, and being lighter and cheaper?

etc., etc.



Nov 12, 2016 at 02:18 PM
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