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Archive 2016 · When x makes a FF mirrorless, I'm moving on, Sony

  
 
rattymouse
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p.38 #1 · p.38 #1 · When x makes a FF mirrorless, I'm moving on, Sony


MJKoski wrote:
Nonono...this is totally different game. Fuji had multiple sensels to form one pixel in the image. This is way more advanced tech where individual sensels can be driven with different exposure times. Effectively creating unlimited DR.


It's going to have the same problem that Fuji's sensor did, mainly that the pixels exposed for the long time needed to capture the shadows will dominate the shutter speed. Setting the shutter speed for a sensor like this can be a huge nightmare.




Jun 25, 2016 at 01:45 PM
mttran
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p.38 #2 · p.38 #2 · When x makes a FF mirrorless, I'm moving on, Sony


MJKoski wrote:
Sony filed a patent in which individual pixel can be exposed for more/less (time) than other pixels when needed. This is the (first) silver bullet of digital photography if it happens for real. DR will gain huge jump.

The effect will be so tremendous that I will use such body even if the battery lasts for 5 shots on average.


+1, this is why I shoot sony and where my money will be. This tech is doable with firmware from a subset of internal clock(s) that is different than main frame.



Jun 25, 2016 at 01:49 PM
alundeb
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p.38 #3 · p.38 #3 · When x makes a FF mirrorless, I'm moving on, Sony




rattymouse wrote:
It's going to have the same problem that Fuji's sensor did, mainly that the pixels exposed for the long time needed to capture the shadows will dominate the shutter speed. Setting the shutter speed for a sensor like this can be a huge nightmare.


And often I will want the same exposure time for the bright parts of the image. While the technology can save som blown highlights, it won't do much for where I want increased dynamic range, higher full well capacity for long exposures.



Jun 25, 2016 at 02:10 PM
rattymouse
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p.38 #4 · p.38 #4 · When x makes a FF mirrorless, I'm moving on, Sony


alundeb wrote:
And often I will want the same exposure time for the bright parts of the image. While the technology can save som blown highlights, it won't do much for where I want increased dynamic range, higher full well capacity for long exposures.


That's what we have now. You aren't using more than one exposure.



Jun 25, 2016 at 04:34 PM
MJKoski
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p.38 #5 · p.38 #5 · When x makes a FF mirrorless, I'm moving on, Sony


One thing they could perhaps do is to buffer pixel value and reset the pixel from zero again once it reaches saturation point. This would also create very high DR.

Fullwell capacity would not matter much.



Jun 25, 2016 at 05:18 PM
RustyBug
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p.38 #6 · p.38 #6 · When x makes a FF mirrorless, I'm moving on, Sony


chez wrote:

most Canon customers shoot Rebels with a kit lens.





Jun 25, 2016 at 08:03 PM
alundeb
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p.38 #7 · p.38 #7 · When x makes a FF mirrorless, I'm moving on, Sony


MJKoski wrote:
One thing they could perhaps do is to buffer pixel value and reset the pixel from zero again once it reaches saturation point. This would also create very high DR.

Fullwell capacity would not matter much.


I guess you mean that higher FWC alone does not solve the problem of dynamic range in the readout circuits. That is true for engineering dynamic range, but would still help a lot for useful photgraphic dynamic range, where the noise floor is defined by a visually acceptable low noise with a higher signal to noise ratio than 1.

It is also difficult to increase the native FWC on the sensor by enough to really matter without sacrificing other aspects of performance.

Reset-and-continue could be a way to go, but still has challenges with the reset time interrupting the exposure. It would probably be much better than just blending successive exposures though.

Another possibility is to swith to gain < 1 at a given threshold, say at 1/2 FWC. If we have a FWC of 20000 e- as an example, at 10000 e- the photon shot noise is already 100 e- and we could switch to a gain of 1/32 without much increased noise, and gain 5 stops in DR.

I hope that sensor manufacturers see potential development in higher effective FWC, as the quantum efficieny race is almost closed and there is not much more to have in the high ISO race.



Jun 26, 2016 at 01:56 AM
MJKoski
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p.38 #8 · p.38 #8 · When x makes a FF mirrorless, I'm moving on, Sony


Yes, this is very interesting subject. Gain adjustment could work nicely and bring that highlight shoulder-effect to digital world from analog film.


Jun 26, 2016 at 06:16 AM
mttran
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p.38 #9 · p.38 #9 · When x makes a FF mirrorless, I'm moving on, Sony


retrofocus wrote:
Currently I would not purchase any kind of digital camera which has not an improved DR directly coming from the sensor.


chez wrote:
the same conclusion from the poll on the Canon forum regarding what people would like in the 5d4. 60% voted a better sensor with improved DR.


+1. Forget about mirror less discussion for a moment. Patch and pump plus some theoretically workaround the noise arguments for DR won't help. Canon has struggled more than half of decade in this sensor noise area since D3X release, they seriously need to do something about it. They can not let their users base hang in there for too long. Regardless what tool we pick and choose, it all comes down to better image quality.



Jun 26, 2016 at 01:16 PM
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