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Archive 2016 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?

  
 
marthagirl
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?


As above. I have jumped to Sony for quite awhile after being frustrated with always locking focus and recomposing later, which also does not work well with f1.4 lenses.

Is there a technical reason behind why DSLRs cannot implement face recognition when shooting through the OVF?Will there ever be a day (perhaps for 5D4) where DSLRs can use face recognition in OVF (or even Eye-AF)?

Thanks!



May 14, 2016 at 02:06 AM
scalesusa
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?


In OVF mode, the sensor is blocked by the mirror, so there is no image to search for a face. The light is going to the OVF, so the person behind the camera is doing facial recognition.




May 14, 2016 at 02:27 AM
charlyw
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?


There is no reason - in fact the 1DxII and 7DII do implement iTR which basically is a face and pattern recognition to augment the focus point selection...


May 14, 2016 at 02:32 AM
mttran
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?


marthagirl wrote:
As above. I have jumped to Sony for quite awhile after being frustrated with always locking focus and recomposing later, which also does not work well with f1.4 lenses.

Is there a technical reason behind why DSLRs cannot implement face recognition when shooting through the OVF?Will there ever be a day (perhaps for 5D4) where DSLRs can use face recognition in OVF (or even Eye-AF)?

Thanks!


In OVF mode, DSLR metering sensor has not enough resolution and often interrupted by the mirror movement so we don't have enough data for those smart AF algorithm you mentioned.



May 14, 2016 at 03:01 AM
pitbullo
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?


Hopefully they can overcome this problem. I would LOVE to have the eye-focus Sony offers.

Edit: They could have implemented it in LiveView, and with the dual pixel AF the AF is also fast. But they dont... Come on Canon!!



May 14, 2016 at 03:19 AM
EB-1
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?


The main problem I have is that the face recognition does not work well with many species even in the video mode. It seems to be designed for predators with two eyes that aim roughly in the same direction.

EBH



May 14, 2016 at 08:12 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?


It requires analyzing video/electronic data from the scene, and getting that from the DSLR is be tricky since the primary sensor is blocked by the mirror during the time when you would went to be analyzing the scene.

(For about 30 seconds I wondered how my X-Pro2 was doing something comparable, namely showing me a rangefinder style OVF view and autofocusing electronically, and then I realized that its design allows the optical and electronic viewfinders to operate simultaneously, an potential advantage of some mirrorless cameras... if you are willing to accept that the two images are obtained from different locations and show slightly different views.)

Dan

Edited on May 14, 2016 at 10:22 AM · View previous versions



May 14, 2016 at 09:14 AM
thw2
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?


Nikon has it... and it works very well.

"Below is an example of D750's automatic face detection when shooting through the optical viewfinder. The camera automatically focuses on faces when 'AF area' is set to 'Auto', in both AF-S and AF-C modes. Even if there's an object closer to the camera, the D750 will stay locked on a face."

- http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d750/8

Canon is lagging behind the competition in many ways... not just AF and sensor tech.



May 14, 2016 at 09:55 AM
chez
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?


I think we have just touched the surface of smart AF detection and tracking and I believe mirrorless systems will lead the way. I'm expecting major enhancements in this area with the next version of the Sony cameras.

In the future we'll see user definable objects that the camera will automatically detect and track. This has been done with image analysis many times and just needs to be incorporated into the cameras.



May 14, 2016 at 10:04 AM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?


EB-1 wrote:
The main problem I have is that the face recognition does not work well with many species even in the video mode. It seems to be designed for predators with two eyes that aim roughly in the same direction.

EBH


I guess we can categorize humans as predators I was on another thread trying to figure out (even though Rudy Winston says wildlife, etc) if iTR is heavily weighted towards human face recognition. I know it uses colours and patterns but the more I read/think about it appears that may be what it was designed for. If it can't find a face it uses up resources always looking for one.

When using the initial AF point in 65 (7D2) and 61 you can point it on a face. I have not tested this in wildlife yet.

Edited on May 14, 2016 at 10:21 AM · View previous versions



May 14, 2016 at 10:20 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?


thw2 wrote:
Nikon has it... and it works very well.

"Below is an example of D750's automatic face detection when shooting through the optical viewfinder. The camera automatically focuses on faces when 'AF area' is set to 'Auto', in both AF-S and AF-C modes. Even if there's an object closer to the camera, the D750 will stay locked on a face."

- http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/nikon-d750/8

Canon is lagging behind the competition in many ways... not just AF and sensor tech.


I haven't used the feature, but the 5Ds/5DsR apparently does offer face detection in non-live view mode. I understand that the 1Dxii does as well, and possibly the 80D. I don't know about other Canon cameras but it looks like some of them implement it, too.

Dan



May 14, 2016 at 10:20 AM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?


There is also this warning in the 7D2 manual. 1DX II says the same and my guess you will find that cut and paste sentence in all bodies the offer it.

~original[/IMG]



May 14, 2016 at 10:26 AM
Photonadave
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?


The 1DX II has face detection capability during non-live view mode AF!

Page 526 in the manual says: “AF point automatic selection conditions: Based on EOS iTR AF setting (Enables AF incorporating human face/color information)”

I interpret “face/color” as both image feature position or color.

The iTR point detection is explained on page 127.

Manual at Canon USA: http://gdlp01.c-wss.com/gds/2/0300023012/01/eos1dx-mk2-im-en.pdf



May 14, 2016 at 10:58 AM
Gochugogi
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?


It's been two months and thousands of stills but I've yet to take a picture of a human face with the 45-point AF of my 80D! I did use the video feature extensively for music performances and the Movie Servo puts a little white square around a human face and tracks it extremely well. It's ideal for solo YouTubers.

So, this morning, I tried the 45-point OVF AF (auto select) on household members--first time using it as I normally use single point or zone--and it did pretty well. Even with a bright window on the side, it recognized the human form and locked on it. However, a large section of points illuminated on on the entire human form, not just the face. So probably not face biased PDAF. I would prefer it locked on the window as I'm more likely to shoot off-center inanimate objects than people. Of course, I'll probably never use the 45-point auto selection mode again...

Edited on May 14, 2016 at 01:45 PM · View previous versions



May 14, 2016 at 12:51 PM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?


There is a mini RGB sensor that allows facial, etc recognition when in PDAF.

I found the 1DX II manual interesting. The 7D2 only as on or off but the 1DX II has face and just basic iTR. The opening sentence for both is cut and paste and says face. The 7D2 describes it as colours only for AI Servo and Face for One Shot.

Coupled with the IDX blog (page 2) it got me thinking that the 7D2 in both AI Servo and One Shot had face recognition. The 7D2 came out after the 1DX usually that stuff similar as they pass it down to another body. People were struggling with BIF and iTR which leads me to think it is face recognition weighted. For colour there has to be a good distinct colour. A seagull against a cloudy sky is not very good.

http://www.learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2013/eos1dx_afpoint_selection_using_color_information.shtml?categoryId=12

I came across this in my searches today.

http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/50697048



May 14, 2016 at 12:59 PM
thedigitalbean
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?


I used this feature on the 1DX2 last weekend photographing my kids and it worked very well. As the manual says it won't work as well for small faces (because of the resolution of the metering sensor which is what they use for the face detection) but with my kids as long as they took up a reasonable portion of the frame it worked great. In one way I preferred this to the way the Sony works because I had the feature with zone focus and with changing zones quickly with the joystick I could easily tell the camera which person to focus on. I also noticed that if the face was large enough the AF point it picked was the one on the eye. This was all with a 2.8 lens, not sure what the accuracy would be like with something like the 85L.


May 14, 2016 at 03:31 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?


Speculating here...

... I think that mirrorless systems can likely do a better job of facial recognition. At all times they potentially have the entire high resolution image to work with — though that could also produce some bandwidth downsides, too — which gives cameras using them much more accurate data to work with.

The systems on DSLRs have a decent number of points to work with, but far, far fewer than on a full sensor. So the ability to detect faces might be a cruder, and this would explain the disclaimers about small faces.



May 14, 2016 at 04:14 PM
mttran
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?


chez wrote:
I think we have just touched the surface of smart AF detection and tracking and I believe mirrorless systems will lead the way. I'm expecting major enhancements in this area with the next version of the Sony cameras.

In the future we'll see user definable objects that the camera will automatically detect and track. This has been done with image analysis many times and just needs to be incorporated into the cameras.


+1, and this where I can see canikon also will be in the long run. Smart tracking AF can't be perfectly built where its data was based on an unreliable moving mirror box and low resolution RGB metering sensor.

Edited on May 14, 2016 at 06:07 PM · View previous versions



May 14, 2016 at 05:19 PM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?


thedigitalbean wrote:
I used this feature on the 1DX2 last weekend photographing my kids and it worked very well. As the manual says it won't work as well for small faces (because of the resolution of the metering sensor which is what they use for the face detection) but with my kids as long as they took up a reasonable portion of the frame it worked great. In one way I preferred this to the way the Sony works because I had the feature with zone focus and with changing zones quickly with the joystick I could easily tell the camera which
...Show more

Interesting. So using the initial AF point worked well. Did you try without it and let the system do it's thing? It is supposed to recognize faces.

Did anyone see this. No explanation but my guess initial AF was used. No face.

iTR



May 14, 2016 at 06:07 PM
marthagirl
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Why can't face recognition be implemented in OVF mode?


thedigitalbean wrote:
I used this feature on the 1DX2 last weekend photographing my kids and it worked very well. As the manual says it won't work as well for small faces (because of the resolution of the metering sensor which is what they use for the face detection) but with my kids as long as they took up a reasonable portion of the frame it worked great. In one way I preferred this to the way the Sony works because I had the feature with zone focus and with changing zones quickly with the joystick I could easily tell the camera which
...Show more

Interesting - seems that I have not been keeping up with developments on the Canon side.

On face recognition in 1DX2, are the AF points limited to those u find in the OVF? Or is it enabled on every pixel (as in Dual-Pixel AF) when in OVF mode? Otherwise I find it severely limiting in practical application compared to Sony.



May 14, 2016 at 09:57 PM
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