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Archive 2016 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?

  
 
amonline
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?


ZachOly wrote:
... you give up:

dual card slots
battery life
internal processor speed
weather sealing
pro level support
pro level first party flash system
low light af
a usable menu system
ergonomics
usable back-button focus
a large used lens network

Seems like a good trade


I've said ML is not ready for pro level usage yet for years now... pretty much since it's come out; and I said it'd be several more years until it will be even close to that level. I think your list sheds light on exactly why I think that way. 95% of your listed items are must-haves for me at the professional level.




Apr 02, 2016 at 03:33 PM
MRomine
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?


heikoM wrote:
I also feel that the Sony FF system goes the wrong direction in creating so many big lenses. It started well with the 35/2.8 and the 55/1.8 (both small). I took the wrong direction with the 35/1.4. The zooms are hilarious.

What do you think?

heiko


Totally agree. It's funny, I've been thinking a lot about his the past two weeks now and even more so after Gordon's most excellent review of the Fuji system. I'm now already reevaluating my Sony a7rII purchase simply over the matter of lens choices. I have the 55 f1.8 which is a stellar lens I just got a used copy of the 28mm f2 at a great price and although I have not used it at a wedding yet it seems to be a perfect little jewel. I want a 35mm of some kind and an 85 mm but not any of the f1.4 behemoths. I wish that Sony offered a lens line like the Nikon f1.8 G series. To me that is the perfect balance between, weight, size, cost, AF speed and bokeh. I have no need or interest in f1.2/1.4 primes or heavy f2.8 zooms. The new Sony G Master series does not interest me, too big, too heavy and too expensive.

What I would really like to see is a Sony sensor in an Oly O-MD E-M1 body. That is the perfect size, weight and lens selection. Love the touch screen of the Oly, just wished it had a better quality sensor in it.

So anyway, not sure how long I will keep my Sony, ay take a lcoser look at the Fujis as they year goes along.




Apr 02, 2016 at 07:20 PM
Edward Castro
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?


Ziffl3 wrote:
end of the day... these are all just tools for the trade.


Exactly, they are just tools.








It's just that Fuji does it better



Apr 02, 2016 at 10:15 PM
LeeSimms
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?


It might be someone's version of a mistake, but the images so far from the G Master / a7rII combo are unreal. To my eye, there's a magical look that's hard to describe. Me likely ... a lot.


Apr 03, 2016 at 01:05 AM
glort
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?


flash wrote:
3. If there was a camera system that was perfect we'd still argue about it. There isn't. And we still argue about it.


We have cameras with the features people were wanting 5 years ago and of course people still aren't happy. If we jumped another 20 years and brought out things people can't even imagine now, they would extrapolate that and want still more. They would also be nit picking over what incredible unknown feature now is better than what the other camera has even though they would both be miracles by today's standards.

4. Eventually someone will try to tell us what "real pros" should and shouldn't use and it will involve a DSLR and they will be wrong.

I couldn't give a damn what people use but I have had a gutfull of reading the idiotic insecurities of people with small mans syndrome saying " That mirrorless will take over". Pigs arse!
What is taking over is cameras on phones, Be under no illusion about that!

Maybe Mirrorless will take over in the pro market one day but it's a bloody long way off yet if it ever happens but why keep ramming it down peoples throats now as if anyone not using mirrorless is committing an offense against humanity?
Do you feel a need to have your personal choice justified and approved THAT badly?

5. They're just cameras people. If someone else's choice is so offensive you feel the need to have a go at them, go for a walk for God's sake.

Exactly.
Tools of the trade. If you can't pick up any camera, including a fully manual one and pump out decent work, then I think people need to worry more about their own skills ( or lack thereof) than having the machine do all the work for them. The degree of automation on any modern camera is well past " Making things easier" so the shooter can concentrate on the, job, they are well into becoming a crutch now.

I also don't understand the attachment people have for their gear like it was a family member or living thing. I remember posting comments about doing underwater photography and the plethora of people telling me " You wouldn't catch me putting my camera under water no matter how good the housing". Why Not? You would turn down highly profitable work because the bit of machinery you would use that you will cast aside like yesterdays newspaper as soon as a new model comes out might get wet or damaged? Do you not drive your car in case someone runs into it?

So what if your camera does get wet or breaks? I made enough money every week to buy a new camera and still have money in the bank so what's the drama? They are machines, not your favorite pet Dog or a priceless and irreplaceable heirloom.

Work the bastards to death and hope they die as quickly as possible because when they do you know you will have made a shipload of money and the cost of buying a new one will be totally insignificant to what you earned with the thing.
If you are running a decent photo business of course. If you are just playing tiddly winks pretending it's a business, might be a different thing.

6. In 5 years or less someone will tell you somewhere on the internet that EVERY camera available today is not suitable for *professional* photography because they're too slow, have too little DR, don't have enough card slots, a big enough buffer or the lens range is too limited. They will be compensating for having small man parts.

If you take varying and differing opinions, that happened long ago. Someone will say this is no good and someone will say that is no good yet funnily enough, there are many cameras that are exactly what people said they wanted not so long ago. Now they have them they are still whinging and will be forever more.

I think people fall for a lot of media and marketing hype.
Magazines, web sites and general internet hype and ego tripping are the main reason people have to keep getting the latest and greatest. Reviews and articles show images taken with the latest Techno camera that are nothing a Pentax K-1000 couldn't have done back in 1976!

These days it's more about looking the part and social acceptance by ones peers than the product produced for the paying client.


7 The photographer's actually making money using their cameras you think are too big/small/ black/white/slow/fast etc couldn't give a flying fuck about what we think of their gear choices. They'll just go shoot.

Right again.
I buy a new cam when the old on is uneconomical to repair. This buying new gear when it comes out, because it's new, just makes me shake my head. It takes me time to learn how to use a new cam near it's potential, I don't want to be repeating that every 12-18 months.

The other thing is most camera's have more features and capabilities than 95% of shooters will ever need anyway. As much as it will upset some, wedding Photography does not exactly demand NASA level equipment to do decent work with. Yeah, I have heard all the excuses and they are just that, excuses. The people that make a big deal of carrying on about little things with gear either do not know their craft well enough or are lazy. Probably both.

Like I have said before, what will this next camera do that solves a problem your clients are currently complaining about and what complaints did your current camera fix that they complained about with the last one?

8. Your customers don't care either.

Most important point of all.
Shooters can have a self indulgent wank about giving their clients the best and all that but it is nothing more than self indulgent Drivel. Those that are so hell bent and dedicated to giving their customers the very best are not using 35mm or mirrorless formats, they are using Medium formats.

I have literally shot and 10's of thousands of images on my little Canon compacts and the clients were stoked and asking me to come back again. Not one single person asked me about file size or image sharpness, colour rendition or any of the other technicalities shooters fuss over sooo much.

9. Medium format photographers are secretly laughing at you and your puny little cameras and sensors.

Exactly what I think about every single time I read anyone carrying on about size and weight of modern cameras. I was still shooting MF on weddings 15 years ago and never did or remember anyone droning on about the size and weight of the things like they were talking about bushel bags full of wheat like so many seem to do now.

If your modern camera is too heavy for you, you are male and under 80 years old, have a big bowl of harden the fk up and get to the gym.

Clearly you need to get off your backside, man up and get a lot fitter.
I have humped around a lot heavier cameras for a lot longer than many people here so don't complain what you have now is sooo heavy you can't cope and a couple of hundred grams or less is going to make some fantastic difference to your ability to make quality pictures. that's marketing bull pushed by camera companies to brainwash suckers into thinking they need to buy the latest offering . Shoot one wedding on a MF and then come tell my how heavy your 35 Format DSLR or whatever is.


That's what I think.......

And you are far from alone!






Apr 03, 2016 at 01:24 AM
JHerr
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?


Back in the day you either kept your giant medium format system on a rolling tripod or you had your assistant carry it and half of your stuff for you.

You did not keep your camera in your hand and up to your eye for 14 hours a day.

I shot good ole 645 in the "old days" when everything was heavier, and it was a lot easier because you worked around it and you shot 1/50th of the number of shots and kept everything on a tripod for most of the day. There were entire parts of the day where you would just stick your tripod in its spot and plan everything else around it, never having to pick it up. That was good ole MF shooting.

I never had wrist problems until I moved to DSLR and had to change my style to have a camera up to my eye the entire day to shoot many more frames - and most people I have worked with are in the same boat (people who shoot sports or folks I worked with in photojournalism). Working a few all day press events where if I lowered my camera from my eye for a second I would miss the shot that my editor "really wanted" - that was far more taxing than anything shot during the old heavy MF days. A big gripped DSLR with a 70-200 and a big flash is nothing to scoff at over the course of a very long day and active day - and this coming from someone who lifts on a regular basis.






Apr 03, 2016 at 03:38 AM
glort
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?


JHerr wrote:
Back in the day you either kept your giant medium format system on a rolling tripod or you had your assistant carry it and half of your stuff for you.

You did not keep your camera in your hand and up to your eye for 14 hours a day.



Sorry

That may have been the way YOU worked, but it certainly want the way I or anyone else I knew at the time worked.
To propose people rolled their camera round on a tripod in church, the park or reception is farcical. Likewise to suggest one could plant the camera round and not move it for hours is also a ridiculous thing to suggest.
I don't know what YOU were shooting but it does not sound like weddings!

I could count the times on one hand I even put the cam on the tripod for park formals but I know the times I did was when I was shooting way after the light went and was trying to avoid shake, not stop holding the thing because it was too heavy.

The times I worked with an assistant when I was shooting weddings on MF I could also count on one hand. It was only when I was trying to show a new guy the ropes that ever happened and it was about once a year. The rest of the time you had a bag with spare backs and film and I had the flash battery which probably went near 2 Kg as well. Others had in over their shoulder on a strap.

I didn't shoot on baby 645's either. I had 6x6's although I did do most of the wedding on 645 backs and the park on 6x6. The 645 I had as a backup camera ( and think I still do have it somewhere) was a lot lighter than the 6x6 that was for sure. I used it about twice and hated the thing for being too small and ergonomic unlike the 6x6 which fitted the hand much better and you could get a decent hold of.

The smaller and lighter 645 did not make it a more comfortable camera to use by any stretch.

The 645 backs gave 6 more shots per roll of 220, they didn't make the camera any lighter. Added to that you had a metz hanging off the things as well. Some grips or the motorized 6x6 I had gave provision for mounting a speedlight but there were none around then powerful enough for the job and if there were, they would have eaten batteries at a rate you would need a belt feed like a machine gun to keep them running.

No, people didn't shoot as many frames then as they do now but they didn't have auto focus, auto film wind, a card with 1000 frame capacity on it, lightweight speedlights, built in metering or any of the other things people not only take for granted but whine about being too slow or not sharp enough or creating exposures 1/10th of a stop out let alone not blowing their noses or wiping their precious backsides.

You did a lot more work being a photographer than you do now being a button pusher.

You are also correct in that you didn't keep your camera to your eye 14 hours a day. No one ever has or does that at a wedding regardless of what camera they use. That is just an unrealistic claim in trying to push and embellish your POV.

I too have done a LOT of press work and I never came across any press events that required you to shoot 14 hours non stop. I never heard of any press event that went 14 hours non stop period!
I'd like to hear what you were covering that required that time shooting because it sure as ship isn't anything like I have done and I cannot think of anything that would require it or went on that long.

I have shot with DSLR's with heavy zoom lenses doing consecutive 14+ hour days shooting 20K+ Frames a DAY many times doing cheer. No one I have shot with uses a Mono pod or anything else because you simply cannot swing in the action fast enough. I have shot with 2 women several times and they shot a lot more frames than I did and didn't seem to have any trouble holding 1D's and 70-200 2,8 IS lenses. They do it a lot so maybe it's a case of getting used to and building up to the workload so you can handle it without falling in a heap.

I'm not saying it's easy but it's not impossible and If you have not shot cheer, you cannot imagine how intense it is or how much of a cakewalk weddings are in comparison.



Apr 03, 2016 at 09:51 AM
JHerr
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?


Every cheer event I have been to has had the front row campers with their 70-200's on monopods.

You seriously think that you can't turn fast enough for the action on a monopod?

I've shot with 400, 500, 600 and 800mm lenses on monopods and been able to track action that moves much faster than cheer.



Edited on Apr 03, 2016 at 07:49 PM · View previous versions



Apr 03, 2016 at 02:38 PM
Holger
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?


heikoM wrote:
That simply is not true!

Look at the lenses from Leica.

Especially the 35/1.4 Summilux pre asph. is tiny, smaller then the 35/2.8 from Sony.

heiko


Of course it is true. The aperture diameter is focal length divided by f-stop. So physics dictates the minimum diameter; vibration control, AF motor, sensor size, minimum focus distance and design choices + ... the rest. Is the old 35/1.4 Summilux fit for 50Mpix sensors wide open, focuses to 28 cm, or is at least as sharp as a Sigma Art wide open (of course rendering is different, but very subjective)? Is it in the same price range?

The appeal with MILCs, for me, is the ability to use both, small and light lenses, adapted if necessary, as well as large and fast ones if required. What is wrong with versatility?
The FE35/1.4 is a very nice lens. I love the rendering. Similar to my Sigma Art 35 in size, but nicer rendering. The 16-35/4, 24-70/4 and 2.8, 70-200/4 and future 2.8 are all similar to Canikon's offererings in size and weight. What did you expect? Who is saying that MILCs are only valid if everything is small?

I use the A7rii with grip, since I find it too small for shooting it during a wedding.



Apr 03, 2016 at 04:25 PM
Holger
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?


ZachOly wrote:
You have to focus on weight/size, because honestly the reason to switch to Sony isn't compelling for a pro at all (again, pros....this is the wedding forum).

So let's ignore the weight/size aspect for a second.

In what you gain with a EVF and "eye focus" (lol), you give up:

dual card slots
battery life
internal processor speed
weather sealing
pro level support
pro level first party flash system
low light af
a usable menu system
ergonomics
usable back-button focus
a large used lens network

Seems like a good trade


Nikon is our main system, but we incorporate the A7rii now, too. Many of your negatives depend on how important they are to you. The dual card slot things is mitigated by shooting with my wife and several cameras. Battery life, most often cited - not really. Easy to change. Pro level support is coming and available in many countries already. Ergonomics with grip is quite good. Back-button focus is something I use all the time. The lenses required for weddings are there in my opinion. What are you missing right now? Low light AF is very good, I don't have problems alongside the D750s or D810 we use. Flashes? D910 in manual or Nissin if I want HSS. The eye-AF is a game changer in my opinion. I have a very good keeper rate with my DSLRs, but you won't get near the A7rii when using the lenses wide open.
I still like my Nikons. Both systems complement each other well.



Apr 03, 2016 at 04:38 PM
CW100
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?


evertdoorn wrote:
I think small mirrorless camera's make good sense, as long as you combine them with smaller and compact lenses. Otherwise it's just a marginal difference with a dslr if you look at size/weight.



yep

www.flickr.com/photos/mmirrorless



Apr 03, 2016 at 05:50 PM
PanS
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?


I feel that was just the initial marketing ploy used by mirrorless companies trying to sell their systems.

"Buy mirrorless, because mirrorless is small and light."

Sony proved that Mirrorless and "compact" don't have to be synonymous.

There are people who want a LARGER professional grade E-mount bodies that are more rugged, weather sealed, with better battery life, and dual card slots.

(Fuji created the solution to dual card slots in a limited space though.)



Apr 03, 2016 at 09:06 PM
glort
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?


JHerr wrote:
Every cheer event I have been to has had the front row campers with their 70-200's on monopods.

You seriously think that you can't turn fast enough for the action on a monopod?


Not with the expected image delivery rate I am expected and expect to produce without having to chimp or edit everything as there is no time for with the people I work with.

Sure, it would be fine if you are shooting the 10yo's that might do a star jump or build a pyramid but when you are shooting people going 20 ft in the air without notice and have several flipping themselves across the mat, very different story.
Maybe some of the routines you could get away with a mono but I'd like to see someone do that with senior stunt and what they got at the end of a routine.

I've shot with 400, 500, 600 and 800mm lenses on monopods and been able to track action that moves much faster than cheer.


Really?
And what moves faster than a senior cheerleader in 3 different axis that has no set path and you don't know where they are going?

I have shot horses, Bikes, V8 supercars, drag boats and Top fuelers and they are a cake walk compared to cheer even if they do 500 KMH like a fueler.
You know where they are going to start, you know where they are going to finish, they only move across not up or down or sideways they all do the same thing and there is only 2 of them at a time and you only generally shoot one once they are moving which is entirely different to trying to get 10 decent shots each of 15+ ultra fit teenagers going hard as they can.

You have actually shot High end cheer right?




Apr 03, 2016 at 10:25 PM
JHerr
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?


Yes I have shot collegiate level cheer, and I have shot most sports at a collegiate and professional level.

Any sport that involves a ball or a puck, very fast collegiate or professional level athletes and random unpredictable movement is harder than shooting cheer. Cheer is just like shooting dancing except at a faster pace- if you've done it a few times you can predict the movement and follow the action easily. How do you not know where they are going? Maybe you need to find a new line of work if you can't follow the movement patterns of cheer. And you seriously can't figure out when they are about to throw someone 20 feet in the air? That is one of the most telegraphed things there is - it requires multiple people and if they are all grouped up for lifts then you can tell when they are about to switch to throws because they will create a little extra space right before the throws - either by moving forward or off to the side or being completely behind everyone else. If they spread out a little bit farther then you just wait for them to bend their knees and follow the action. You can predict some of those "super fast" movements by looking at where they are creating space - because if they intentionally create space someone will be swinging around to fill it - that's what makes it easy to spot when people are about to do their cross mat tumbles.

Do you shoot with both eyes, or are you getting wrapped up in tunnel vision.Shooting with both eyes open is an easy way to keep track of all the action.

Are you sure you are using the monopod right? Because myself and all of my colleagues have no problem keeping up with national level sporting events with far bigger and heavier lenses than a 70-200.

You listed all of the things that come to the mind when someone thinks of "fast", instead of things which are actually fast in regards to shooting- all those things you listed are shot from a distance making them easy to follow. Just because a super car is technically going "fast" does not make it a difficult shot - that's why they are so easy to pan.

Edited on Apr 04, 2016 at 11:14 AM · View previous versions



Apr 04, 2016 at 04:13 AM
jmraso
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?


So the real and true happiness of my clients from last seaon is faked, false ... as they have beautiful story telling books made out of entirely Fuji ML system ? And they paid for it much above the average in my area !

Not really !


amonline wrote:
I've said ML is not ready for pro level usage yet for years now... pretty much since it's come out; and I said it'd be several more years until it will be even close to that level. I think your list sheds light on exactly why I think that way. 95% of your listed items are must-haves for me at the professional level.






Apr 04, 2016 at 07:39 AM
zalmyb
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?


meh, I'll take an A7rII with a zm 35mm 1.4 over my d810 and sigma 35 any day. And it would be around a third of the size and weight.


Apr 04, 2016 at 09:03 PM
jeremy_clay
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?


Man the hell at that list. Used lense market? My mirror less adapts virtually any lense I want, from any manufacturer. The ease of it's manual focus system let's me use 100 dollar lenses as opposed to 2000 dollar ones, and at a fraction of the size and weight (which the article oddly fails to mention. Fancy that.) If you don't think the menu system is usable, you are reaching to find fault, and things like pro level support? In the near 10 years as a pro shooting canon, I don't k of what that even means but it's claimed essential here. If you need 1Dx level autofocus to shoot a wedding and I'm manually focusing barely lit concerts with 20 year old lenses, there's a huge discrepancy about what 'essential' to a pro actually means.
Things missing at least in the Sony system are dual cards and weather sealing. The article linked is a joke hunting for ad revenue from easily manipulated photo communities.

*edit* it appears the upcoming Sony A9 will have dual slot. SR5 so take with a tiny pinch of salt, but very likely accurate.

“The next generation flagship mirrorless camera from Sony will be a giant leap. It will drop a huge bomb in the imaging industry. It will not be A7III or A7RIII. It will be a new model above A7 series. I would say A9 (let’s name it as the new model). So the new A9 will have dual XQD card slot, no CFast version, only XQD. A9 can do UNLIMITED RAW burst, UNLIMITED. The camera wont pause for buffering.”



Apr 07, 2016 at 08:39 AM
jmraso
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?


My current gear for the present season, 1 AF Fuji lens, the 35mm and the rest are Samyangs 12, 21, 50 and 85 ( the 135 soon), MF, razor sharp, nearly unexistance CA unless you really force it, solid, good looking and cheeeeap.

http://www.jmraso.com/images/Gear.jpg




Apr 07, 2016 at 09:22 AM
LeeSimms
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?


My own disappointment with the mirrorless product was the broken promise of a silent shutter. The a7 makes an odd slice/clicking noise that's very noticeable. If you engage the silent shutter, you open the door to sync/banding issues.

But again I'll say, I think G Masters on the a7rII is the best look available. I hope the others catch up.



Apr 07, 2016 at 09:39 AM
Mark_L
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · full frame mirrorless a mistake?


I really wish more mirrorless cameras had electronic shutters. Silent, no vibration, super framerates, doesn't wear out, unlimited flash sync.


Apr 07, 2016 at 12:45 PM
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