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Archive 2016 · FM Policy when USPS loses package

  
 
jancohen
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · FM Policy when USPS loses package


bennet wrote:
Jbregar, if you read the thread it has been established so no reiterate it and the seller understands it as stated many times in his previous posts.


I have to admit that I too am not so sure the OP understands and accepts (probably the more important qualifier) what Justin (jbregar) stated in his post above.

I'd also like to mention that when it comes to things like the hows and whys of shipping, exchanging funds, filing for refunds/returns, etc., there aren't any "FM" policies per se. FM is not an online store. Rather, it simply provides a means of exchanging goods (thanks, Fred!) in a manner similar to the classified ads one might find in a Pennysaver, albeit with a beneficial feedback component; hence, my emphasis of caveat emptor.

OTOH, it is assumed the OP wanted to know from the gitgo how others felt about the subject at hand. FM's users might share generally accepted ideas of how such transactions should occur and be completed, and that is what probably should have been kept in mind when titling this thread in the first place.






Apr 08, 2016 at 09:42 AM
Racethesunset
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · FM Policy when USPS loses package


I titled the thread so as to help inform my evolving opinion of FM statues, if any, and understanding of the law.

Most of you have done a bang up job explaining that.

It's been stated time again, in multiple ways, that both the buyer and I respect FM's general policy and statues, as well as the law, although based on some of the feedback, perhaps we value integrity and a fair deal more than some. If you're in a deal that goes south because of a third party (like the USPS), try not to stick it to each other, you know? Separating what was ignorance with what is a more comprehensive understanding will take a quick perusal of the prior posts, if you would like more information in that regard.

Anyways, the local PD won't investigate this, so we are left with USPS Consumer Affairs and the FBI IC3 route, the latter of which warned me that they were understaffed and might not get around to it. As it turns out, I assumed that this would not be covered by insurance, but if there is suspicion of theft, it can be covered at times, even if paperwork is weak. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that the FBI picks this up or at least responds to it.



Apr 11, 2016 at 05:12 PM
jbregar
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · FM Policy when USPS loses package


"FM" doesn't have policies or statutes (statutes are laws passed by a legislature or other governmental body) covering this. There are some conventions, but those (obviously) aren't binding. FM isn't a store. Think of it like a classified ads site. They're facilitating a transaction between two people.

The intent of my post was to inform you of the legal duty you have to deliver the item that was paid for and to illustrate that the person who contracts with the shipper is the one who has possession of it while in transit. Shipping insurance is ALWAYS for the protection of the SELLER.

I ran into a bike shop once that made insurance an optional extra. I declined it (as I always do, it's not for my protection). The bike arrived damaged. Called the bike shop, they said "too bad, you declined insurance." I said "you were responsible for getting me a non-broken bike and you failed to do that" but I just got the runaround. Called AMEX, explained the situation and the money was back in my account almost instantly. They eventually lost the chargeback and had to pay a fee on top of refunding the money. This isn't a gray area and "the buyer declined insurance" isn't going to fly if the credit card company gets involved.

Hopefully your stuff shows up or they bust the butthole who stole it. As long as you have a police report, you can probably go ahead and file a homeowner's insurance claim (if it's worth it).



Apr 13, 2016 at 04:12 PM
jcolwell
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · FM Policy when USPS loses package


+2 (which is a previous +1 and another +1)


Apr 13, 2016 at 08:59 PM
jancohen
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · FM Policy when USPS loses package


I'm by no means an attorney, but I suspect that any agreement to purchase an item that gets past the point of exchanging funds could be considered contractual in nature, at least in the eyes of the law. That includes commercial sales, as well as sales between private parties who agree to such exchanges (e.g., like those conducted here by way of FM's B&S).

That said, I can appreciate what the OP said about "deals going south because of a third party" and "not sticking it to each other" if such occurs. For the most part though (unfortunately or not), most people conducting business via the B&S are doing so not because they are best of friends or buddies (though they might share a comradery of sorts), but because they're looking to conduct business, even if that entails private exchanges, in manners that will hopefully ensure mutually acceptable completion of such exchanges.

A fairly good article about sales with respect to buyers' and sellers' responsibilities from the perspective of civil law can be found here:

Sales Law.

Always insure higher value items before shipping them, regardless where the funds for that comes from--include those costs in the price of the item if need be; always make payment with a means that provides some sort of recourse should a need for such arise.

Otherwise, in the eyes of Murphy, you unnecessarily leave yourself open to avoidable risk.



Apr 13, 2016 at 10:07 PM
Weasel_Loader
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · FM Policy when USPS loses package


I'm in agreement with most everyone that it is sellers responsibility for delivery. I always purchase insurance and adult signature on higher value items. I see many people selling items and then mention shipping and insurance is on buyer. While I don't agree with that, it is their terms, but I usually ask if they will accept my offer which is shipped and paypal'd. If they do not purchase insurance, that is on them, not me (as the buyer). If item(s) don't show up, I simply get my money back from either the seller or paypal. The seller then needs to deal with the delivery problem.

Always, always purchase insurance when selling high value items!!!



Apr 14, 2016 at 02:29 PM
CGrindahl
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · FM Policy when USPS loses package


There is a Nikon D5 listed on the Buy and Sell forum with a note from seller that IF the buyer wants insurance, they will have to pay for it. I guess by doing that this person can offer a lower price and thereby make his offer more attractive. I imagine few retailers insure packages they send, but then I doubt the more legitimate ones would renege on payment if the item were not delivered. Payment would also likely be with a credit card so the buyer would have some leverage in resolving a problem.

I understand that with used gear we don't always have such options available to us. Yes, B&H, Adorama, Cameta Camera and KEH have used gear available, likely also at a bit of a premium. I typically buy from E-Bay and haven't had a single problem in the hundred or so transactions I've had involving lenses. But it is comforting to know that if I have a problem as a buyer I'll likely get support from Paypal.

I'm generally comforted when a seller includes both shipping and insurance in the price they list for a piece of gear. Granted, if I can do a transaction locally and not incur those charges I'm happy, but I really want to deal with people here who have good reputations. That ideally will extend to the person having a presence on the site away from the Buy and Sell forum. But a seller willing to pick up insurance on gear offered for sale, is important to me.

Hope this works out and you get your money or lens back.



Apr 14, 2016 at 07:31 PM
Racethesunset
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · FM Policy when USPS loses package


CGrindahl wrote:
There is a Nikon D5 listed on the Buy and Sell forum with a note from seller that IF the buyer wants insurance, they will have to pay for it.


This is the precedence that I noticed here to begin with, and the crux of both mine and the buyer's assumption and mistake. I thought that this pattern was to benefit all forum members to keep transactions and prices commonly low, while simplifying the transaction somehow.

Hope this works out and you get your money or lens back.

Thanks! I think we may make it out in the black because of a mix of FBI (thank you for the advice everyone!) and USPS CA/Claims forms and documentation. I finally got the nod to file the claim with my home owners policy due to the probability of theft.

Also, for what it's worth, the local USPS Consumer Affairs official here in Phoenix finally did some legwork, and helped a lot. She actively contacted local distribution centers to confirm their standards for lost and found, returned items, and damaged packages, spammed lost and found images, and confirmed that none of their standards fit the profile of this incident, which makes it highly suspect. It has been escalated now. Out of 6-7 USPS interactions, she was only the one that was helpful - I'd highly recommend *only* talking to your local clerks if this happens to you.



Apr 21, 2016 at 11:49 AM
werds
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · FM Policy when USPS loses package


jancohen wrote:
Perhaps, from a subjective standpoint. Some (like me) will probably argue though that from an objective standpoint, that as the shipper it was your responsibility to buy additional insurance, whether or not the buyer paid for it. That's the way the world works, for better or worse, and right now you're holding the proverbial short end of the stick. Unfortunately.

Might I ask what your idea of an equitable finale is? If you're looking for one from the PO, the only one I see is the possibility, however small, of the package being found and either forwarded on to the
...Show more

This - whenever I ship anything of value above the standard coverage I pay for the insurance, mostly because I know that a buyer has much more recourse than the seller to get funds returned...but also the inner cheapskate knows that someone will always decline it and then Murphy's law... so I make sure to eat that cost myself.

Also, having worked in the shipping logistics world, standard practice is that unless otherwise clearly stipulated, any shipment is the property of the shipper until signed for and received by the purchaser or receiving agent. Which is why in the logistics worlds we have so many specific terms used when shipping (most common is FOB where the ownership and liability is not transferred to receiver until signed for by receiver and delivered to the specified location).

I feel for you though



Apr 22, 2016 at 07:50 PM
Racethesunset
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · FM Policy when USPS loses package


Final verdict:

Home owner's insurance covered the missing gear with full retail reimbursement. Deductible stung a little, but still ended up in the black somehow.






Apr 27, 2016 at 02:27 PM
jbregar
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · FM Policy when USPS loses package


Nice... at least it got covered.

For what it's worth, I image you could be quite successful scamming people who make insurance optional by just declining the insurance and then claiming the item never made it or was stolen from your mailbox/front porch/whatever. The moral of the story is insure and require signature. Even B&H requires a signature for valuable boxes.



May 02, 2016 at 05:09 PM
mikeinctown
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · FM Policy when USPS loses package


FWIW there are a few things in play here. If the buyer paid with a money order or cash or check and they declined insurance, as long as the seller has proof of shipment then they have fulfilled their duties. You presumably have an email string/contract which both parties agreed to.

If the item was paid for by Paypal, then you have to follow the rules of the service that you've chosen to utilize as you have a contract with them. If Paypal required that the buyer is required to get the item then you better do everything in your power to make sure that they get that package and you better protect yourself in case they do not.

People need to realize the actual costs of doing business and roll all costs into their asking price, IMHO. Trying to add on this fee or that fee and ask the buyer to pay more and more is just asking for trouble.

As part of the original shipment was returned, I can almost guarantee that the original box was smashed and broke open. I've had stuff arrive back to me that looked like a semi had run it over. (box taped back closed with huge black tire marks on it)



May 03, 2016 at 10:11 PM
Weasel_Loader
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · FM Policy when USPS loses package


mikeinctown wrote:
FWIW there are a few things in play here. If the buyer paid with a money order or cash or check and they declined insurance, as long as the seller has proof of shipment then they have fulfilled their duties. You presumably have an email string/contract which both parties agreed to.

If the item was paid for by Paypal, then you have to follow the rules of the service that you've chosen to utilize as you have a contract with them. If Paypal required that the buyer is required to get the item then you better do everything in your power
...Show more

Agree 100% and glad to hear this. I roll all of my cost into my asking price (paypal fee, tracked and insured shipping w/signature). Packages do get lost as I've had two lost by USPS in the last few years. Luckily, I had insured both and was reimbursed within a week for full amount.




May 03, 2016 at 10:47 PM
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