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Archive 2016 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII

  
 
Bobu
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII


I’m a regular guest of the FM alternative forum, but so far haven’t done any posts on the Sony forum. Therefore let me first introduce myself to the Sony forum (although it seems that about 50% of the people there are also regular guest of the alternative forum): My main interest is landscape photography and I nearly only shoot when I travel, which I try to do as often as possible. You can find a selection of my images on my website: http://wild-places.com/

During the last 3 years I used a Nikon D800E kit with several Zeiss lenses. I few of weeks ago I made the switch to Sony. Maybe my explanation for this change can be helpful for others in the same situation.

My main motivation for this switch was to reduce size and weight while maintaining the high image quality of the Nikon D800E.

In addition I expect that manual focus will be much easier and more precise with the Sony due to the electronic viewfinder and functions like focus peaking and magnification of the viewfinder image. The A7RII has also IBIS (in body image stabilization), which helps a lot if you shoot handheld. Most of my shots are from a tripod, but sometimes I shoot handheld and then IBIS is really helpful to get sharp images.

There was nothing wrong with the Nikon D800E. It’s is a fantastic camera with great image quality and it has always been extremely reliable. I never had any problems. Same can be said about the Zeiss ZF.2 lenses which I used with the D800E.

There was a certain moment end of last year that finally led to my decision. I had already preordered the Zeiss Otus 28mm lens and was waiting for the shipment of the first lenses in Germany.

Then nearly at the same time the detailed size and weight specifications of the Outs 28 were revealed together with the announcement of the Loxia 21mm, a very small and lightweight Zeiss high performance MF lens for the Sony e-mount.

I was asking myself: do i really want to travel with 4-5 lenses of Otus size and weight or wouldn’t it be much more enjoyable to travel with 4-5 Loxia size lenses with similar performance (stopped down).

Especially since I already had this positive experience with small high performance MF lenses in the past with the Leica M9. When I switched from Leica to Nikon I really enjoyed the much higher dynamic range of the D800E sensor and also the possibility of LV for precise MF. But carrying around my photo bag was much more pleasant with the Leica.

My hope is that an A7RII-Loxia-kit will combine the best of the two worlds: Small size and reduced weight combined with good MF support through LV and a sensor with high DR and high resolution.

I travel a lot and often do longer hikes with my equipment. Therefore size and weight really matters to me.

Here is a comparison between the two systems (I know it’s a bit like comparing apples and oranges because the lenses have different maximum apertures, but for me the IQ stopped down at f/5.6 or f/8 is most important for my shooting and in that regard these lenses should be mostly comparable):

2 x Nikon D800E: 1800 g
Zeiss 2.8/15mm Distagon ZF.2: 730 g
Zeiss 2.8/21mm Distagon ZF.2: 620 g
Zeiss 1.4/28mm Otus ZF.2 (preordered): 1350 g
Zeiss 1.4/55mm Outs ZF.2: 970 g
Zeiss 2.0/135 Apo Sonnar ZF.2: 920 g
total: 6390 g

2x Sony A7RII: 1164 g
Voigtländer 4.5/15mm E (preordered): 294 g
Zeiss Loxia 2.8/21mm: 394 g
Zeiss Loxia 2.0/35mm: 340 g
Zeiss Loxia 2.0/50mm: 320 g
Leica Apo-Telyt-M 3.4/135mm: 450 g
total: 2962 g

In addition I can now use a smaller ballhead and a smaller tripod due to the lower camera and lens weight and EFC function of the A7RII as well as smaller and lighter filters (52mm + 58mm instead of 95mm + 82mm + 77mm) which further reduces my equipment weight.

I already got two A7RII bodies and all the lenses besides the not yet released Voigtländer 15mm (in e-mount). And most of my Nikon stuff is already sold.

At the moment I still prefer the interface and usability of Nikon, but getting used to a new system always takes some time. At least the A7RII is highly customizable, which really helps. Getting used to the electronic viewfinder was easy for me, getting used to the different menu structure is much more difficult. There are too many functions that I will never use and other important functions like the switch for the EFC are hidden deep in the menu and can’t be assigned to a custom function button. But I’m pretty sure that I will get used to this camera.

I also started to do some testing with the new lenses. So far the performance of the Loxia 21 and Loxia 50 looks very promising. Wide open the corners are not very sharp (especially with the Loxia 50), but stopped down to f/5.6 or f/8 resolution and contrast of both lenses are very high.

The Loxia 50 is stopped down at least as good as the 50mm Planar ZF.2 and in my opinion even slightly better. The difference to the Otus 55 is (at f/5.6 or f/8) very small. The Otus has a slightly better resolution of very fine details (if you pixel peep at 100%). Of course at f/1.4 to f/2.8 the Otus is in a completely different league. Stopped down the Loxia 50 has a very high IQ at all distances combined with some lovely color rendering. Therefore I expect it to be a very good standard lens for landscape photography and for this use case to be nearly as good as the Otus.

Here are some links to full size brick wall test images of the Loxia 50, shot at a medium distance of about 5m. The following settings were used for the test: Gitzo tripod with RRS BH-55 head, EFC, self timer, ISO 100, IBIS=off, in-camera-lens-corrections=off, LR lens-profile=on, LR sharpening 50/0.7/100/0, LR contrast +30.

Loxia 50mm @ f/2

Loxia 50mm @ f/8

Test images of the Loxia 50 at infinity show the same performance.

According to my tests the 21mm Loxia is as good as the 21mm Distagon regarding resolution/sharpness, but it shows less CA and slightly lower distortion. If you like the classic 21mm Distagon, chances are very high that you will also like the Loxia 21mm.

Here are some links to full size brick wall test images of the Loxia 21 (same settings as with the Loxia 50).

Loxia 21mm @ f/2.8

Loxia 21mm @ f/8

For me the Loxia 21mm is a real game changer (or in this case system changer). 21mm is by far my most used focal length and with the Loxia I can get now an extremely small, well built, 21mm, high performance, MF lens, perfectly suitable for landscape photography. Which has in a addition a very small standard filter size of 52mm, an all metal construction and a weather seal at the bayonet. What more could you wish for as a landscape photographer?

A surprise for me was the Leica Apo-Telyt 135. I bought this lens used for 1700€ on eBay last week. I wanted something smaller than my beloved Zeiss 135 Apo for my Sony kit and there are not many small high performance choices at that focal length available. Since the Zeiss 135 Apo is in my opinion the technically most perfect lens I’ve ever owned and tested I was a bit skeptical whether I should really give up the Zeiss 135 Apo. But in my opinion it feels unbalanced on the small A7RII.
I will post a detailed comparison between these two 135mm lenses on the A7RII in another post soon. Stay tuned, the results were not what I had expected.

Another surprise was the Loxia 35mm. Both center and corner sharpness wide open and stopped down were clearly not on the level of the Loxia 50. I’m suspecting that something could be wrong with this particular lens. Therefore I did send it to Zeiss to have it checked. When I get the lens back from Zeiss I will do some further testing.

My first serious landscape test with my new kit will be a short trip to the Lofoten end of May.

Boris



Mar 19, 2016 at 09:52 AM
dakel
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII


Nice post Boris. Look forward to hearing more.


Mar 19, 2016 at 10:52 AM
chez
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII


That's quite a weight savings in your kit. I find carrying my A7R with lens around my wrist for a day a big change compared to a hefty DSLR outfit. My previous travel camera was a 5d2 and it was a pain to carry that camera for a day in the streets...that has all changed with the A7R.


Mar 19, 2016 at 11:10 AM
GMPhotography
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII


You chose very well indeed. That's a great landscape kit. The Loxia 21 and 50 are there best of the 3. The 35 is very good stopped down but wide open it has some issues. But still a very good landscape lens. The VC 15 III is a joy to use. Love mine and you chose very well on your Leica 135 that's a fantastic lens. The Lixia 21 maybe the best 21mm I ever shot. Today and this does change sometimes but I do need AF being a working Pro. VC 15, Loxia 21 and 50, sigma 24-35 F2, Sigma 35 1.4 and Batis 85

If you need a 85 you can't beat the Batis 85 for landscape. It's really not heavy just get rid of the stupid hood and use something else as that will keep it small. I use metal screw in hoods I get cheap on eBay for all my lenses

Bobu wrote:
I’m a regular guest of the FM alternative forum, but so far haven’t done any posts on the Sony forum. Therefore let me first introduce myself to the Sony forum (although it seems that about 50% of the people there are also regular guest of the alternative forum): My main interest is landscape photography and I nearly only shoot when I travel, which I try to do as often as possible. You can find a selection of my images on my website: http://wild-places.com/

During the last 3 years I used a Nikon D800E kit with several Zeiss lenses. I few of
...Show more



Mar 19, 2016 at 11:18 AM
stevesanacore
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII


HI Boris, I came a similar route from using Nikon D800E for my landscape fine art work, and moved to Sony A7R2 for the same reasons. Instead of Zeiss however I had a set of Leica R lenses adapted to Nikon mount that I am now using on the Sony. I too would love to downsize and trying to swap out my Leica R's for Sony E mount equivalents, so you reviews are very welcome and insightful. I look forward to reading more of your experiences with the Loxia line on the Sony.

Steve



Mar 19, 2016 at 11:20 AM
GMPhotography
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII


Can't go wrong at all with the Loxia 21 and 50. I'm trying to get the energy up to go work on a big lens test to post and may take about 4 hours to do it. I'm lazy though. Lol

I know it would help some folks make some decisions



Mar 19, 2016 at 11:25 AM
Bobu
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII


dakel wrote:
Nice post Boris. Look forward to hearing more.


Thanks dakel!



Mar 19, 2016 at 11:47 AM
Bobu
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII


chez wrote:
That's quite a weight savings in your kit. I find carrying my A7R with lens around my wrist for a day a big change compared to a hefty DSLR outfit. My previous travel camera was a 5d2 and it was a pain to carry that camera for a day in the streets...that has all changed with the A7R.


Indeed, the weight saving is quite significant, even without the huge Outs 28. I'm very confident that the IQ with the A7RII/Loxia will be similar to the D800E. The biggest question for me is: will the A7RII be as reliable as the D800. I will know the answer in a couple of months.

Boris



Mar 19, 2016 at 11:51 AM
Bobu
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII


GMPhotography wrote:
You chose very well indeed. That's a great landscape kit. The Loxia 21 and 50 are there best of the 3. The 35 is very good stopped down but wide open it has some issues. But still a very good landscape lens. The VC 15 III is a joy to use. Love mine and you chose very well on your Leica 135 that's a fantastic lens. The Lixia 21 maybe the best 21mm I ever shot. Today and this does change sometimes but I do need AF being a working Pro. VC 15, Loxia 21 and 50, sigma 24-35 F2,
...Show more

Thanks Guy! I think I can live with the gap between 50mm and 135mm. I know I could in the past with the my Nikon kit. If I would get the Batis I would also have to add another (larger) filter size which sounds not very attractive. Using a step-up-ring from 58mm to 67mm is also not possible because of the non-removable sunshade of the VC15 (unless you shave the sunshade, which I know you have done).

Boris



Mar 19, 2016 at 11:55 AM
Bobu
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII


stevesanacore wrote:
HI Boris, I came a similar route from using Nikon D800E for my landscape fine art work, and moved to Sony A7R2 for the same reasons. Instead of Zeiss however I had a set of Leica R lenses adapted to Nikon mount that I am now using on the Sony. I too would love to downsize and trying to swap out my Leica R's for Sony E mount equivalents, so you reviews are very welcome and insightful. I look forward to reading more of your experiences with the Loxia line on the Sony.

Steve


As Guy wrote, at least the Loxia 21 and Loxia 50 can be highly recommended for landscape photography. I will give you an update about the performance of my Loxia lenses after my trip to the Lofoten.

Boris



Mar 19, 2016 at 11:57 AM
GMPhotography
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII


Yea I'm going crazy on different filter sizes as well. Total understand that one for sure. Actually right now as I'm waiting to finally figure out this kit is a CPl 52 from breakthrough photography. I'm still very tempted to get the Loxia 35 again and call it a day on landscape kit . Than all three Loxias share the same filters . Than just get a ND for the 15 since that is all I would need for it. I would not be filtering anything longer than 50 as well. Than my landscape kit would be a lot like yours 3 Loxias Vc15 and the GM 85 . One big lens. Keep the 24-35 f2 for AF and also 85 for AF stuff. I'm on the fence on the Sigma 35 1.4. I like the lens not the issue it is if I really need it is the question


Mar 19, 2016 at 12:04 PM
timballic
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII


Very interesting and well presented reasoning Bobu. Very similar in many respects to my change from 5DII and ZE lenses to A7 and MD/OM Z lenses. What a delight it was, to change from 100mm square filter system, to a 67mm one!

One day I also fully intend to try out the Loxia range,, especially the 21 and 50, though at the moment I'm on the fence about the 35/2.(I'll be very interested to hear if Zeiss manages to "transform" your copy)

I also have high hopes set for what the forthcoming (late 2016) "short telephoto" will turn out to be. Hopefully a fully new design of a 100/2 in a small package, as they managed with the 21/2.8.

I look forward to hearing a lot more from you about it, as you get more used to your new system. As you say, "reliability" is still the big question mark over the Sony, especially in comparison with the rugged, dependable, Nikon.
If Sony would put as much effort into customer support/after sales service, as they do on innovative new designs, I'd be well pleased.



Mar 19, 2016 at 12:16 PM
MJKoski
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII


I used a7r and d810 last year. Maybe 50/50 ratio. Landscapes mostly. I dumped the Nikon kit last october to get A7R2.

Some things I would still leave for Nikon to handle:
-cold weather usage
-long exposures - a7r2 just cannot touch d800e or d810 in raw quality



Mar 19, 2016 at 12:47 PM
Bobu
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII


timballic wrote:
Very interesting and well presented reasoning Bobu. Very similar in many respects to my change from 5DII and ZE lenses to A7 and MD/OM Z lenses. What a delight it was, to change from 100mm square filter system, to a 67mm one!

One day I also fully intend to try out the Loxia range,, especially the 21 and 50, though at the moment I'm on the fence about the 35/2.(I'll be very interested to hear if Zeiss manages to "transform" your copy)

I also have high hopes set for what the forthcoming (late 2016) "short telephoto" will turn out to
...Show more

Thanks! I will give an update when the Loxia 35 is back from Zeiss.

Boris




Mar 19, 2016 at 12:52 PM
Bobu
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII


MJKoski wrote:
I used a7r and d810 last year. Maybe 50/50 ratio. Landscapes mostly. I dumped the Nikon kit last october to get A7R2.

Some things I would still leave for Nikon to handle:
-cold weather usage
-long exposures - a7r2 just cannot touch d800e or d810 in raw quality


My hope is that the A7R2 will be as good as the D800E for lon exposures if
- I limit the exposure time to around 15 sec max and
- always activate the LENR

Maybe this is an illusion. I will know in a couple of months.

Boris




Mar 19, 2016 at 12:56 PM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII


Congrats for good choice Boris!

Bobu wrote:
At the moment I still prefer the interface and usability of Nikon, but getting used to a new system always takes some time. At least the A7RII is highly customizable, which really helps. Getting used to the electronic viewfinder was easy for me, getting used to the different menu structure is much more difficult. There are too many functions that I will never use and other important functions like the switch for the EFC are hidden deep in the menu and can’t be assigned to a custom function button. But I’m pretty sure that I will get used to this
...Show more
You are very optimistic I got first Sony on November 2013, and jumped fully to Sony on February 2014 (well kept last Canon until summer 2015, but in practice only shoot with Sony A7(r) last 2 years). I still miss Canon custom menu, every single time I need to use the menu system. I need 4 functions from menu: "Live View Display", "Auto Slow Shut.", "e-Front Curtain Shut." and "New Folder" from menu (after initial configuration) and they are scattered all around the menu randomly. Every time I face situation I need to change these settings I can feel blood pressure raise... But some compromises need to be made. I'm really happy that I don't use any AF-lenses, then the super annoying menu would be needed even more.


With Loxia 50 you need to take into account it's field curvature; it has Leica-like zone-B dip. Due to this I tend to prefer f/8 for landscapes. The center performance is better f/5.6, so this is small compromise what is needed for landscapes.


Other thing from usability point of view - with native FE and Leica M lenses the adapters don't have Arca/Swiss plate. Due to this I have permanently attached LB-A7 kind of bottom plates in all of my 3 cameras; I have sturdy Arca/Swiss plate in camera permanently and it makes camera little taller and easier to grip. The A7II and A7rII might have better ergonomics, but the A7 and A7r are just too small (I don't have large hands, glove size 9 or 10) for comfortable holding of camera. Drawback is that the LB-A7 weights 73g, without the L-bracket part (about 30g more if the L-part is attached) - I try to use them without the L-bracket part as modern display media does not support well vertical images. So these add 220g to my camera back weight, but it's OK compromise for me.


One practical hint for cold weather usage (from real winter shooting to early morning sunrise shooting in fall/spring - whenever breathing to items causes moisture on surface): avoid breathing while using viewfinder, the round 4-way button/rotator gets pretty easy into "mood" that one direction stops working. This has happened few times with both of my A7 and with A7r ~20 times. I have now paid special attention to hold breath when using viewfinder and have been able to avoid this is issue pretty well. When it happens, it takes some days to dry (I use my sauna floor as it has electric heating and keep heating turned on few days and leave camera on the floor) so that camera will work 100% reliable - pretty problematic situation when traveling, one of the reasons I prefer to bring 3x A7 camera with me.

Samuli



Mar 19, 2016 at 01:06 PM
Samuli Vahonen
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII


Bobu wrote:
My hope is that the A7R2 will be as good as the D800E for lon exposures if
- I limit the exposure time to around 15 sec max and
- always activate the LENR

Boris, please study carefully the behavior of camera; usage of LENR causes A7rII to drop 2 bits from RAW-images. I can't check exact details I did let my Diglloyd "mirrorless"-subscription to expire. I'm pretty sure it has been discussed on Fred Miranda as well...yes, here is link: https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1379163

Samuli



Mar 19, 2016 at 01:11 PM
Bobu
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII


Thanks Samuli! From my tests I slightly prefer f/8 over f/5.6 with the Loxia 50. The loss in center sharpness is in my opinion extremely small. But f/5.6 is still fully useable if necessary.

Thanks for the advice regarding the 4-way button. I will try to be careful.

Regarding the LENR: I know that this will lead to 12 bit mode. But from what I've read the consensus seems to be that it is still the better choice compared to just no LENR. Of course the best option is probably to shoot your own darkframe after the shot (without LENR) and do the NR in PP. But I don't like this and since I only use LR I would have to use another tool.

I will do my own tests with long exposures with and without LENR.

Boris



Mar 19, 2016 at 01:22 PM
MJKoski
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII


A7r2 holds to multiple minutes without LENR in cold. But still, bulb causes 12bit drop as well. You can ofc use smooth reflections app to get very smooth file with extra long exposures.

If you are okay with 15 seconds then there is nothing to worry. 30 sec is the limit for max raw quality.



Mar 19, 2016 at 01:49 PM
Bobu
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · From Nikon D800E to Sony A7RII


The question is: if you shoot around 15 sec at medium to high temperatures and do not want to do a manual darkframe processing in PP is it better to activate the LENR and lose the 14 bit mode or to set the LENR to off and use 14 bits?

What is the consensus of the experts here regardings this questions?

Boris



Mar 19, 2016 at 01:55 PM
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