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Archive 2016 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions
  
 
alwang
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions


Tariq Gibran wrote:
What's really funny is that Leica invented AF and then sold the technology to Minolta as they thought nobody would be interested in it. The system of AF that Leica invented though was not the AF tech. that ended up in Minolta's camera (based on Honeywell patents that Minolta was later sued over and lost).

It's almost certainly Panasonic's tech in the Q though.

http://www.cultofmac.com/383779/leica-invented-autofocus-then-abandoned-it/

http://www.overgaard.dk/leica_history.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autofocus


It's also funny that Sony really innovated with using a touch screen interface on the early NEX cameras, and has since refused to put a touch screen on any of their higher end mirrorless while the other manufacturers have caught up. It really is a very useful feature.




Jan 04, 2016 at 06:14 PM
Surelythisnameisfree
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions


All interesting stuff. There were a few aspects of the Q that made me sell it in favour of the RX1rii (and equally there are a couple of features I miss) but at the end of the day it really comes down to preferred focal length.


Jan 04, 2016 at 06:30 PM
robgo2
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions


Surelythisnameisfree wrote:
All interesting stuff. There were a few aspects of the Q that made me sell it in favour of the RX1rii (and equally there are a couple of features I miss) but at the end of the day it really comes down to preferred focal length.


Absolutely right, and while I realize that the 28mm focal length makes some people happy, I still regard it as an odd choice. That's because only a fairly small minority of users would choose 28mm as the FL that they want to use for general shooting. And since the Q has a fixed, single focal length lens, general shooting is how most people would want to use it. One way to look at it is that Leica has produced a sub-niche camera. I suspect that they wanted to differentiate the Q from Sony's RX1 series, but my guess is that they would have attracted many more buyers (by a factor of 2-3?) with a 40-42mm lens, while charging the same amount. Possibly there will be other versions of the Q with different focal lengths down the road, but no one knows that now.

Rob




Jan 05, 2016 at 09:08 PM
JoeFriday
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions


Personally, I think Leica didn't want the Q to compete with their existing cameras and highly regarded 35mm 'Cron lens. There are a lot of people out there who have an m-mount Leica that never use anything but 35mm with it. I think that has been Leica's bread and butter for decades, and the Summicrons are a big seller for them.

If they started offering a fixed lens camera in the same configuration, they'd just be siphoning sales from their own base or having them say "no thanks, I've already got that setup in Leica gear". This way they have the possibility of having the current m-body/Summicron owners buy yet another product.



Jan 05, 2016 at 10:00 PM
robgo2
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions


JoeFriday wrote:
Personally, I think Leica didn't want the Q to compete with their existing cameras and highly regarded 35mm 'Cron lens. There are a lot of people out there who have an m-mount Leica that never use anything but 35mm with it. I think that has been Leica's bread and butter for decades, and the Summicrons are a big seller for them.

If they started offering a fixed lens camera in the same configuration, they'd just be siphoning sales from their own base or having them say "no thanks, I've already got that setup in Leica gear". This way they have the
...Show more

That's why I suggested a 40-42mm focal length for the Q. It's just different enough from 35mm to make it distinct from the RX1 as well as other Leica lenses. And as we all know, Leicaphiles are strongly inclined to split hairs when it comes to lenses. Just think how many of them have several different lenses of the same focal length. I don't see how a Q with a more popular focal length could have hurt. Leica would have attracted more new buyers to the brand, some of whom might graduate to other cameras and lenses.

Rob



Jan 05, 2016 at 10:49 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions


I don't know of many street shooters who would prefer a FL around 40mm-ish. Majority would likely be 35mm with 28mm being a close second. IMO.


Jan 05, 2016 at 11:03 PM
robgo2
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions




Gary Clennan wrote:
I don't know of many street shooters who would prefer a FL around 40mm-ish. Majority would likely be 35mm with 28mm being a close second. IMO.

I actually like 50mm, but the Q would be more than a street camera with a 40mm lens.

Rob



Jan 05, 2016 at 11:12 PM
maxx9photo
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions


28 perfect


Jan 05, 2016 at 11:22 PM
robgo2
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions


maxx9photo wrote:
28 perfect


For some, yes, for most no. Understand that I'm not criticizing those who favor 28mm for the Q. I might even like it myself. I'm simply puzzling over Leica's decision from a business/marketing standpoint.

Rob



Jan 06, 2016 at 12:25 AM
philip_pj
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions


Winogrand used 28mm I believe, but he really got in people's faces to get face/half body shots. 35mm invades many womens 21st century level personal space, and you may not want to do that, in so many places today.

Here is a good short promo of Winogrand, you can see how fast he reflexively pulls the camera away from people when they spot him at close range (~5m). At 6:20 one guy walks right up to a woman and sticks his camera 18 inches from her (unappreciative) face - click.






Jan 06, 2016 at 12:43 AM
 

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millsart
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions


robgo2 wrote:
For some, yes, for most no. Understand that I'm not criticizing those who favor 28mm for the Q. I might even like it myself. I'm simply puzzling over Leica's decision from a business/marketing standpoint.

Rob



I always find it odd how many people think that just because we buy some camera's, enjoy photography, and spend a lot of times on photograph forums we somehow think that means we'd know the first thing about running a global camera company. Its a bit like saying just because I eat 3 meals a day and enjoy dining out that I'd be qualified to run a huge restaurant chain.


I would simply say, try finding a Q in stock for the past 6 months; its seeming selling quite well.

Leica appears to know their market, and thus their business pretty well.

Heck, maybe Leica's new marketing phrase could even be "for some yes, for most no".... it has a nice ring to it really



Jan 06, 2016 at 01:04 AM
Joshua Lowe
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions


Leica's stated reason for the 28 was that it was the most compact design.

I think we'll eventually see 50 and 35 focal length Q cameras.



Jan 06, 2016 at 01:28 AM
rscheffler
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions


JoeFriday wrote:
Personally, I think Leica didn't want the Q to compete with their existing cameras and highly regarded 35mm 'Cron lens. There are a lot of people out there who have an m-mount Leica that never use anything but 35mm with it. I think that has been Leica's bread and butter for decades, and the Summicrons are a big seller for them.

If they started offering a fixed lens camera in the same configuration, they'd just be siphoning sales from their own base or having them say "no thanks, I've already got that setup in Leica gear". This way they have the
...Show more

My take is there is a real usefulness to shooting one focal length wider than I normally would on digital and cropping to taste in post. Maybe this was less practical with film. And with 24MP as the standard FF sensor resolution, cropping to 35mm still leaves you with ~15MP, which is decent. Definitely more than what average cropped 35mm film would resolve. A lot of times when I shoot 21mm, I crop it a bit. Same with 28mm. Same with 35mm...

I started in the M system with 21, 35 and 50mm. I was never much of a fan of 28mm on SLRs, but ended up getting a 28 Cron and it won me over. I consider it my 35mm lens, though I recently got another 35 and have been using it a fair amount. But I'm slowly being pulled back to the 28 Cron again. It's the lens I leave on the camera and if I only bring a minimal kit with me, it's in the bag, whereas the 35mm feels supplemental...

My guess is Leica picked 28mm to offer something different from the RX1 and X100, etc. It also leaves more room to release another Q with a ~50mm lens. If the Q was 35mm, it would probably be more difficult to convince owners to also get one with a 50...

Q with 21 and 50 options would be cool. Might make me question getting another M.



Jan 06, 2016 at 01:53 AM
millsart
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions


Nice thing about 28mm is you can always crop it to 35. You can't add any extra width to 35mm though....

I like either being able to shoot 28mm, which I think is a nice landscape/cityscape focal length, and great for indoors, and I like being able to throw the frame lines on, which while not doing anything unless your shooting jpeg only, do give a nice visualization, which honestly I prefer over a TTL framing a lot of times and having a 35mm FoV as well. But its cropping the sensor you say.....?

Well, a cropped 28/1.7 with a APS-H 15meg file is pretty darn good since in my book. If its not, tell it to people taking all the excellent images with, say a X100s/t with a 23/2.0 on a APS-C 16meg sensor.

Heck, even a 28/1.8 on a 1.8x crop 8meg sensor isn't half bad, because tons of photographers regard the 25/1.8 on a 2x crop m43 body a "shallow" DoF tool, compared to their f4.5-5.6 kit zooms.

Point being, one man's unacceptable compromise can be another mans gold standard.


Additionally, lets say Leica really does intent to do a 50/2 Q, given the sales the of the original model..... If you already bought a 35mm Q would you really feel 50mm is different enough to drop another $4k ? I sure as heck wouldn't...

Adding a 50mm to an existing 28mm Q though ? Well, budget is still one thing, but certainly makes a bit more sense given how much more different the focal lengths.

Heck, do a 18/4 Q as well.....I might really be tempted by that one!, and perhaps so would a lot of M shooters who don't like external OVF's or EVF's just to compose. Think about that, a fixed lens ultra wide. Nothing really like that on the market, save for the Sigma Quattro with its 21mm equiv 14mm, but that is a slow everything camera, without an EVF etc.

Getting a bit into silly money at over $12k for a 18/28/50 Q trifecta, but then again, when I had my M9 I had over $12k invested in a 21/35/50 3 lens kit so maybe it isn't that crazy....

Back to reality though, if Leica did introduce a second Q, which is a big "if", would anyone be suprised to see anything other than a 50mm version ?

Second question, who wants one ?



Jan 06, 2016 at 02:35 AM
JoeFriday
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions


Gary Clennan wrote:
I don't know of many street shooters who would prefer a FL around 40mm-ish. Majority would likely be 35mm with 28mm being a close second. IMO.


As I recall, the Leica CL was outfitted with a 40mm and that was a rather popular outfit back in the days of film. I owned one and only sold it because I switched to digital and it would be a shame to see it collect dust.

Another outstanding camera that was close in FL was the Contax T (the original model). I still have mine, altho it hasn't been fed film in a few years. But again, a highly valued camera with a 38mm lens.

Personally, I think 40mm is closer to what our eyes see and has significantly less distortion than 28mm. But I've got nothing against a wider lens, for that matter.



Jan 06, 2016 at 03:06 AM
Spyro P.
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions


philip_pj wrote:
Here is a good short promo of Winogrand, you can see how fast he reflexively pulls the camera away from people when they spot him at close range (~5m). At 6:20 one guy walks right up to a woman and sticks his camera 18 inches from her (unappreciative) face - click.





This is precisely the quintessential kind of street shooting that I've been trying to describe to people and explain why 9 out of 10 modern cameras are unsuitable for street shooting. You just can't do what he does with AF, and you can't do it without a lens with a marked focus ring. Doesn't matter if your camera has a touchscreen, a joystick, 5000 selectable focus points and nuclear powered autofocus, it just can't do what GW was doing in the video with a 50 year old camera. And you could do it with pretty much any 50yo camera, didn't even have to be a leica.



Jan 06, 2016 at 03:12 AM
millsart
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions


Interesting video for sure. I think a whole generation of the latest so called "street" photographers could learn a thing or two about watching it.

Also interesting was that he wasn't concerned about how "stealth" his camera is, he interacted with his subjects who clearly knew he was taking photos opposed to worrying about if he could someone trigger the shutter without anyone even knowing he framed a shot, and his work doesn't seem to feature peoples backsides as they are walking away or homeless people sleeping




Jan 06, 2016 at 04:05 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions


JoeFriday wrote:
As I recall, the Leica CL was outfitted with a 40mm and that was a rather popular outfit back in the days of film. I owned one and only sold it because I switched to digital and it would be a shame to see it collect dust.

Another outstanding camera that was close in FL was the Contax T (the original model). I still have mine, altho it hasn't been fed film in a few years. But again, a highly valued camera with a 38mm lens.

Personally, I think 40mm is closer to what our eyes see and has significantly less
...Show more

I agree that 40 is closer to how our eyes see (which I believe is actually 42mm's on the 35 format).

The scale focusing Rollei 35 is another famous classic that has a 40mm lens and was fairly popular over many decades. Stephen Shore used one:

http://erickimphotography.com/blog/2012/08/13/5-things-stephen-shore-can-teach-you-about-street-photography/

Bresson was once asked: "Why the 50-millimeter lens?"

He answered:
"It corresponds to a certain vision and at the same time has enough depth of focus, a thing you donít have in longer lenses. I worked with a 90. It cuts much of the foreground if you take a landscape, but if people are running at you, there is no depth of focus. The 35 is splendid when needed, but extremely difficult to use if you want precision in composition. There are too many elements, and something is always in the wrong place. It is a beautiful lens at times when needed by what you see. But very often it is used by people who want to shout. Because you have a distortion, you have somebody in the foreground and it gives an effect. But I donít like effects. There is something aggressive, and I donít like that. Because when you shout, it is usually because you are short of arguments."

http://lens.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/06/21/cartier-bresson-there-are-no-maybes/?_r=0



Jan 06, 2016 at 04:06 AM
karlfoto
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions


Thanx for a well written comparison.

I used to have a GR, and only sold it because of its lack of viewfinder. I wish that Ricoh would come up with a camera like the Q which would make it at least affordable!

Would you say that the evf requires a rubber hood on the Q, especially if you wear glasses. That large expanse of flat glass looks like it might catch irritating reflections, or scratch the glasses?

How would you say the efv on the q compares to the evf part of the hybrid on the fuji x1? Now that there is a fuji x2 on the cards, that brings in another option.

Lastly, would you say the DR and banding are less of a problem on the Q than on the canon 5dii if you have used the latter that is?

Q is very tempting!

Thanx
Karl



Jan 06, 2016 at 04:29 AM
cputeq
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Leica Q vs Sony RX1rII - My in depth impressions


I actually agree about the 35 vs 28. Forever I thought 28mm was just a "weird" focal length but once I got around to it, I usually prefer it and just crop if I need a bit tighter. I think the Panasonic 14/2.8 got me accustomed to it and now I own the 28/2 for my A7ii.

Nice thoughts on the writeup, even if I will never own the camera, it's nice to hear how it feels in use. I'd love to own one some day




Jan 06, 2016 at 04:32 AM
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