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Archive 2015 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows

  
 
billsamuels
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows


I was at Lower Antelope Canyon this summer and finally got to really working on some of the better photos from that trip.

I'm hoping that you can help me by critiquing them. You DON'T have to answer all of them. I'll take whatever you're willing to give me!

A.) The first TWO (2) photos were nearly identical, but there are some small yet important differences that set them apart! I can't decide which one is better. I would like to have them enlarged and printed on metal, but I'm not sure which one is:

1. a better photo, &
2. of the better photo, is there anything that can be done to make it even better?

B.) The next photo (#3) I found interesting, but maybe it's not to you? Lots of interesting lines and shapes in the rock that gives it texture and depth, and then there's this very contrasting hole with the sun or sky coming in with what's the most 3-dimensional rock. I think it looks like the eye of a monster.

Question - Good, fair, bad picture and then separate from that, what do you think about the settings of the colors and brightness? Anything needs to be adjusted?

C.) Last Photo (#4) - this is my favorite photo and although the woman is wearing regular clothes, she is standing surrounded by fascinating subjects! Look carefully because if you don't know this place, there's a natural sculpture of a face to her left and to her right is a very strong sun ray coming in- swirling in, but it looks very spiritual the way it comes up from the ground and a tornado-like shape and exits at the top. And the girl is standing in front of it like she is praying or bowing to it, making the photo even more interesting!

What does this photo need to make it perfect as far as adjustments to colors, brightness, all of the adjustments on Lightroom and/or Photoshop? Could this be a photo contest-worthy shot (amateur)?

Thanks very much for your input.
Bill








Photo #1 - one of two photos that are a lot alike, but aren't exactly alike






Photo #2 - two of two photos that are a lot like, which one is better?






Photo #3 - The evil single-eye is looking in on you!






Photo #4 - Navajo lady praying to the spirits




Dec 01, 2015 at 12:13 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows


Bill,

A. First one.
The sections have a stronger parallel symmetry, with the lower section "cupping" the upper section better.

B. The overall brightness seems a bit high and lacking much gradient / falloff of natural light.

C. The processing is very stylistic.
Nothing wrong there, per se ... just be aware that such processing may be received as lacking, or it may be received as artistic. As is, it just looks a bit too "oils" / blocky for my taste. By that, I mean it strikes me much more as a drawing / painting / CGI than a photograph. Again, not a problem per se ... but, if you are asking for judging in photography comp, it might be received differently (i.e. too much emphasis on processing overriding the capture itself) than if judged in a broader category "art" comp.

The capture itself is rather nice with the interplay of the person with the light shaft. I'm guessing you took the 2 hour photographer's mid-day tour to get the light beams and the sand toss. Would be curious to see the sooc's you have to work with.

Such an interesting place, would like to get back there again. If I do, I'll have to find out how I can spend more time there than a tour (i.e. permit, etc.) allows for.



Dec 01, 2015 at 04:22 AM
ben egbert
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows


Overall one is my favorite. I like the way the shapes fit the comp best, probably what Kent is saying.

3. is not doing it for me, the open area is too bright. In fact I would prefer it to not be there at all.

4. I prefer no people in a landscape.



Dec 01, 2015 at 11:09 AM
lighthound
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows


Of the first two images I prefer the the first. I like the extra jagged textures you have on the right side. To me this adds depth and a nice contrast to the smooth curves and swirls. I also think that it helps stop the viewers eyes from falling off the right side and leads your eyes back into the center of the frame. Similar to what Kent described.

I think a touch more contrast, a little bump in saturation and slight (-)gamma might make it a little stronger and separate all the cool layers a little more. I played with it a little to illustrate.

Dave







Dec 01, 2015 at 11:31 AM
Camperjim
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows


I liked Dave's rework and tried one of my own....







Dec 01, 2015 at 11:54 AM
ben egbert
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows


Never been to Antelope Canyon so I don't know what color to expect, but Dave and Jim both ended up with more red/orange. Knowing the possible color of the area, any of these are possible. Jim's is a bit more subdued.


Dec 01, 2015 at 12:02 PM
beavens
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows


ben egbert wrote:
Never been to Antelope Canyon so I don't know what color to expect, but Dave and Jim both ended up with more red/orange. Knowing the possible color of the area, any of these are possible. Jim's is a bit more subdued.



Just went a month ago, and there is a pretty decent range of browns, reds and oranges. It's truly gorgeous. Bill's edit is more true to your eyes, but nothing with pushing a little here!

I prefer 1 overall, for most of what has been mentioned. Although I do like the magical feel of the last shot.

Guess this might be the sign to finally start posting some of my Antelope stuff.

Cheers!

Jeff



Dec 01, 2015 at 12:20 PM
lighthound
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows


beavens wrote:
Guess this might be the sign to finally start posting some of my Antelope stuff.

Cheers!

Jeff


As my granddaughter would say....
Well duh!
Now get busy Mr.!




Dec 01, 2015 at 01:19 PM
Camperjim
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows


ben egbert wrote:
Never been to Antelope Canyon so I don't know what color to expect..........


Shooting in deep canyons automatically imparts deep purples and other colors which have nothing to do with the actual color of the rock




Dec 01, 2015 at 03:25 PM
billsamuels
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows


Camperjim wrote:
I liked Dave's rework and tried one of my own....


At first, I was a bit in shock seeing Dave's changes, but then I realize that in fact, it's not what the place really looks like that matters, but:

Shooting in deep canyons automatically imparts deep purples and other colors which have nothing to do with the actual color of the rock

And this is really true, especially here!!!

I think both Jim and Dave's re-do are great, with Jim's showing more of the stratification - thanks guys!

And thanks also to Ben and especially to Rustybug who really gave a great detailed and helpful analysis.

#1 wins and gets a facelift, while #2 goes to bed and #3 joins it. #4 I still think is a great photo, but it requires the short explaination that goes w/ it.



Dec 02, 2015 at 12:31 AM
billsamuels
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows


DO you all think I should do the same touch-ups that Jim and Dave recommended to photo 1 to photo 4? Would that greatly enhance photo 4 or would that change it in a negative way?


Dec 02, 2015 at 01:43 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows


Camperjim wrote:
Shooting in deep canyons automatically imparts deep purples and other colors which have nothing to do with the actual color of the rock



+1

Slot canyon wall color can essentially be a blank palette of sandy textures residing @ various angles of orientation to the angle of light being allowed to reflect off of them. The deeper the slot, the more narrow the angle of light to be received from ambient, and thus the more restrictive spectrum of light being cast onto our subject. Other slots can have more inherent rock coloring, but the primary attribute of influence to slot canyons is the restriction of available spectral light.

White light from the sun is spectral divided by spherical prismatic refraction through the atmosphere, based on the angles involved. Normally, that separation occurs into the cyan / blue / cool and warmer red / yellow / warm that we typically see throughout the day. The combination of those amounts equate to white = warm + cool in some combination(s) of R+G+B = White Balance. When we are in a position to re-assemble (most) of that separation, we get close to White light. Depending on orientation and time of day that % of warm + % of cool varies and we get the different colors of light being cast upon our subjects.

When we are in cool blue light (as in the shadows), we are absent of the warm light, such that White - Warm = Cool. When we are in warm light (as in golden hour), we are absent of (or reduced amounts of) cool light, such that White - Cool = Warm.

In the case of slot canyons, the amounts of Warm + Cool that normally equate to White (balance) are further reduced, as the amounts of R+G+B are restricted based on the time of day for the light able to enter through the slot. We are not able to "re-assemble" the full spectrum of light as we are with a full complement of light received from an larger sky area that normally affords a "fuller" re-assembly of the light. As such, we get different amounts of spectral response reflecting off of our subject (which in the case of AC is largely a uniform sandy color).

By splaying light from differing angles of reflection, they correspondingly occur from the accompanying restricted angle of entry through the slot that restricts the amount of direct warm and indirect cool components. Those restrictions then render different colors of lighting @ W - %R -%G -%B = %R+%G+%B remaining to create the variations of color that are then reflecting off of the (relatively) uniform wall color, yet revealing / reflecting different angles / colors of light based on the depth / angle orientation to the slot and time of day.

It is akin to having three spotlights of R,G,B shining on a stage to create a single white spot. Then, when you turn off the G light, you are left with R+B=M or, turn off the B light and your are left with R+G=Y, etc. Adjust the % of contribution from each spot, and the colors combinations can be infinite.

Of the images above, #3 seems to be the easiest one to see how the color changes with the depth / angle of restriction. The wamer top section tells us that the slot restriction is limiting the open sky (cool) more than the direct sunlight (warm). As we move farther down, the direct sunlight is further reduced, and the relationship of %warm + %cool is then altered to render a different color.

In #4, we can see that the sunbeam is providing the most available direct warm light possible to be received through the slot at that time of day, and we can get a closer approximation to typical daylight balance as we have essentially a full complement of direct warm light, coupled with a somewhat reduced amount of open cool skylight. But, in the "shadow areas" we see the lack of direct warm light reaching those areas of the canyon walls render the absence direct warm light much differently than the sandy color which abounds. It's all about the angle of light coming through the slot @ reaching / not reaching the various areas which dictates what the reflected spectral response will be.

Here's a rendering that (crudely) emulates what I remember seeing "as seen" (also a testament to eye / brain accommodation to WB) at a relatively uniform sandy color ... which is of course different from the recorded spectrum. The debate of "as seen" vs. "as recorded" is probably represented as well in Antelope Canyon as just about anywhere else that I can think of. Whether one aspires to present the colorful, natural spectral response (recorded / unaccommodated) or the WB adjusted "as seen" experience ... your pic, your message, your call. Both can be compelling representations of Antelope Canyon and its walls of many colors.









Dec 02, 2015 at 06:23 AM
ben egbert
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows


Good analysis as always Kent. Slots also have a legend to live up to. Just google images and you will see a few hundred renditions with all sorts of variations but with perhaps a majority showing a particular tone and style.

As the saying goes, if the facts and the legend are different, print the legend.



Dec 02, 2015 at 09:55 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows


ben egbert wrote:
Good analysis as always Kent. Slots also have a legend to live up to. Just google images and you will see a few hundred renditions with all sorts of variations but with perhaps a majority showing a particular tone and style.

As the saying goes, if the facts and the legend are different, print the legend.


Thanks Ben,

+1 @ facts don't usually win the popular response.

But, I find in trying to produce the legend ... it helps to understand the facts, so that you can proceed accordingly to do so. With that in mind, I chose to go at the last tour of the day for AC rather than the noon-time photographers special (which is when you can get the sunbeams) with the intent to get a different hue.

Seasonal variance could be something for consideration also. I suspect the first or last tour of the day, on the winter solstice, would generate the most variance from noon on the summer solstice. Would love to be able to shoot there throughout the year, but at least I did finally make it there after many years of wanting to.


Edited on Dec 02, 2015 at 10:12 AM · View previous versions



Dec 02, 2015 at 10:02 AM
ben egbert
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows


RustyBug wrote:
Thanks Ben,

+1 @ facts don't usually win the popular response.

But, I find in trying to produce the legend ... it helps to understand the facts, so that you can proceed accordingly to do so. With that in mind, I chose to go at the last tour of the day for AC rather than the noon-time photographers special (which is when you can get the sunbeams) with the intent to get a different hue.


That was tongue in cheek, other than my comments about your color science which is always good.

My favorite slot Canyon is Zion Narrows because it also has a river in it. I have my slot shots.



Dec 02, 2015 at 10:08 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows


Gotcha @ tongue-in-cheek. But, facts still are typically more boring than the legend.

Actually, the mystique of not knowing the facts is part of what drives the allure for many. Kinda like how a good magician never reveals his trick.

When you have done something that others "think" they can't do ... they typically take more notice of that, rather than something they "think" they can do. That doesn't matter if it is our beloved craft, or many other aspects in life. People tend to take more notice of what they (know/think) can't do, than what they (know/think) can.



Dec 02, 2015 at 10:19 AM
lighthound
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows


billsamuels wrote:
DO you all think I should do the same touch-ups that Jim and Dave recommended to photo 1 to photo 4? Would that greatly enhance photo 4 or would that change it in a negative way?


As to your question, I think only you can answer that. It is a nice image but as you said, you need to tell the back story to help it along. I'm with Ben in that I don't like to see people or any other man made objects in landscape shots but I believe this image is not a about landscape but rather an experience you had in an amazing iconic location. If you plan on printing this image I would say yep, a little more work could help make it stronger. If you do decide you want to experiment further with it, my suggestion is to dial back your NR that you have applied. The amount you have there has made everything look like plastic IMHO. I suspect you did that to remove some noise but there is a fine line between not enough and too much. All you can do is experiment a little until you get it to where you like it.

BTW, I took a look at these on my home monitor last night. I must say that I like Jim's edit better. My work monitor that I used for the edit is way off.

Very good stuff Kent! Thank you for going through that lighting explanation!

Dave



Dec 02, 2015 at 10:44 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows


ben egbert wrote:
That was tongue in cheek, other than my comments about your color science which is always good.

My favorite slot Canyon is Zion Narrows because it also has a river in it. I have my slot shots.


Thanks Ben, but it only took me twenty years to go from "CMYK fries my brain." to "Dang it ... I'm gonna learn this stuff if it kills me."

Still learning.



Dec 02, 2015 at 10:54 AM
Greg Campbell
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows


"Better" is entirely subjective....

Slot colors _can_ be very intense, but often are not. I think a lot of people get "sucked" into tweaking their images (cranking the saturation) to match those that they find on-line. Not a bad thing, in and of itself, but just be aware of this "peer pressure" before you start sliding sliders and wondering, "Why doesn't my image look right?"

A. I prefer #2. It looks more 'centered' and 'balanced' per my eye.

B. Don't mind the sky at all. It doesn't overpower the rest of the photo. IMO, better to leave it natural than to 'fix' it with blue fill or cut/paste of a sample of sky.

If I ran the zoo, I'd pull the black-point up a notch or three, adding some dark areas to balance the light, and bumping contrast slightly. (Not that I'm looking for "My clarity slider goes to Eleven" levels!) If necessary, be sure to restore the original level of saturation afterward. I really like the more natural color rendition.

C. Truth be told, the lightning makes it look like she was cut-and-pasted into the scene. That and the light beam sorta trigger my Jackalope Cliche' Overload circuit. As a biased observer, I'd better stick to, "No comment."



Dec 02, 2015 at 01:33 PM
Greg Campbell
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Lower Antelope Canyon - PLEASE give me your opinions as follows


billsamuels wrote:
Do you all think I should do the same touch-ups that Jim and Dave recommended to photo 1 to photo 4? Would that greatly enhance photo 4 or would that change it in a negative way?


Not my call, but IMO, I'd leave the color where it is. If you feel the image needs more "pop," try some gentle curve massage, aiming to slightly accentuate the rock's textures and shapes.

How about something like this?

1. Level adjust, pulling blacks up. Done in LAB colorspace, adjusting lightness only. Even then, it picked up a little extra color.

2. Very light wavelet sharpen. (Perhaps too much? It's on the ragged edge of being oversharpened.)

Overcooked? What do you think?




Dec 02, 2015 at 01:58 PM
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