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Archive 2015 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII

  
 
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII


http://www.dxomark.com/lenses#hideAdvancedOptions=false&viewMode=list&yDataType=rankDxo

Dxomark is way out of date on their comparison of lens performance and ranks all lens better shot on a7r or D800e, and 5d3, even though 5dsr and a7rii have been out for 5 months and 3 months prospectively.

Just as an aside, the way dxomark evaluates lens is in combination with cameras. Since d800e and a7r had more mpx, all nikon mount lens and sony mount lens have consistently outscored canon mount lens because a 36mpx camera can outresolve a 22mpx (5diii latest body they have used) by 36/22-1 or 60%.

Aside from their silly roll them all weighting together ranking, their data was modestly usable until now.comparing betwwen brands. Because all you could achieve before 5dsr with canon was 22, but now 51 is possible.

But 5 months to at least post some 5dsr on the likes of 24-70 or 11-24 to give us a feel for what the 5dsr is achieving is puzzling.

Their lens rankings are no longer relavent. The 5dsr could way outperform or underperform the a7rii and they have no data for 3 or 5 months?



Nov 20, 2015 at 02:35 PM
Monito
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII


Why are we even bothering with DxO? They jiggered their rankings so that when their own camera came out, voila it is the best in the world. We should believe them?

Look at http://the-digital-picture.com and read their detailed usage based reviews and compare lenses side by side at multiple apertures to form your own rankings. You know, like apertures you use a lot, not just wide open. You know, like practical things about cameras such as ergonomics and autofocusing.



Nov 20, 2015 at 03:04 PM
molson
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII


Scott Stoness wrote:
http://www.dxomark.com/lenses#hideAdvancedOptions=false&viewMode=list&yDataType=rankDxo

Dxomark is way out of date on their comparison of lens performance and ranks all lens better shot on a7r or D800e, and 5d3, even though 5dsr and a7rii have been out for 5 months and 3 months prospectively.

Just as an aside, the way dxomark evaluates lens is in combination with cameras. Since d800e and a7r had more mpx, all nikon mount lens and sony mount lens have consistently outscored canon mount lens because a 36mpx camera can outresolve a 22mpx (5diii latest body they have used) by 36/22-1 or 60%.

Aside from their silly roll them all weighting together
...Show more

Just take the 5D Mark III megapixel number from DxO, and multiply it by 2.318 (51 divided by 22) to get the updated lens rating... it's probably no less scientific than most of DxO's ranking methodologies.



Nov 20, 2015 at 03:05 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII


I really like my 5dsr but I still have all the junk that came with my a7r (lens, batteries, grips, .... including my a7r) so if I thought that the a7rii was significantly better than the 5dsr, I miight switch to it.

There is no data to tell me my 5dsr is even or better at resolution than the a7rii.

So I just carry on with 5dsr hoping that its even or better.

It woudl be better to make choices based on data.



Nov 20, 2015 at 04:31 PM
Monito
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII


If you "really like your 5DsR", then stick with it. (I really like my 5DS). The A7R2 might be better in a couple of statistics out of many, but "significantly better"? Nah. Don't thrash.



Nov 20, 2015 at 04:39 PM
EB-1
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII


Dxo data is rather weak for lenses. There are better tests out there for review. But realistically both the Canon and Sony hi-res bodies are less than or about 6 months old. That's not way out of date.

EBH



Nov 20, 2015 at 04:58 PM
architect7
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII


I stopped taking DXO seriously a while ago. They haven't even touched the new super-tele zooms which is unacceptable with how popular that segment has become.


Nov 21, 2015 at 02:13 AM
melcat
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII


Scott Stoness wrote:
It woudl be better to make choices based on data.


Why? If the cameras are sufficiently close, it is better to make any decision than no decision.



Nov 21, 2015 at 03:07 AM
EB-1
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII


Scott Stoness wrote:
I really like my 5dsr but I still have all the junk that came with my a7r (lens, batteries, grips, .... including my a7r) so if I thought that the a7rii was significantly better than the 5dsr, I miight switch to it.

There is no data to tell me my 5dsr is even or better at resolution than the a7rii.

So I just carry on with 5dsr hoping that its even or better.

It woudl be better to make choices based on data.


Resolution depends primarily on the lens when the sensor has high MP counts. However, the two camera systems are entirely different in most other aspects, as has been discussed ad nauseam at FM. In any case DXO is a poor choice to base any decision. Get out there and shoot. Eventually there will be something better in some respect, but 50MP is nothing to sneeze at.

EBH

Edited on Nov 21, 2015 at 03:25 PM · View previous versions



Nov 21, 2015 at 09:00 AM
dmcphoto
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII


IMO: Things like ergonomics, breadth of lens and system accessory offerings, service turnaround time, and out of warranty repair cost outweigh small specification differences. One needs to make very large and meticulously done prints with each camera and compare them side by side at close range in order to distinguish any differences that might exist. That never happens in real life. The bottom line is that if you hang a big print made with any of these systems it'll look great and no one will be able to tell what camera was used to take it.

Getting the shot in the first place often means being able to use a camera quickly and having the lenses and accessories available to support the type of work you do. As much as we'd like to think so, the specification differences between modern high-end cameras don't matter in any real way unless you are working in a narrow niche where a particular specification or feature outweighs everything else.



Nov 21, 2015 at 09:57 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII


I like to say that DXO accurately reports what DXO reports, but most people have no idea what DXO reports actually mean — and the scores often mean something quite different from what people assume.

I'm not a fan.

Dan

Scott Stoness wrote:
http://www.dxomark.com/lenses#hideAdvancedOptions=false&viewMode=list&yDataType=rankDxo

Dxomark is way out of date on their comparison of lens performance and ranks all lens better shot on a7r or D800e, and 5d3, even though 5dsr and a7rii have been out for 5 months and 3 months prospectively.

Just as an aside, the way dxomark evaluates lens is in combination with cameras. Since d800e and a7r had more mpx, all nikon mount lens and sony mount lens have consistently outscored canon mount lens because a 36mpx camera can outresolve a 22mpx (5diii latest body they have used) by 36/22-1 or 60%.

Aside from their silly roll them all weighting together
...Show more



Nov 21, 2015 at 10:05 AM
shutterbug guy
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII


I quit reading DXO years ago. Like the saying goes, garbage in, garbage out.

Enough said...



Nov 22, 2015 at 06:50 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII


shutterbug guy wrote:
I quit reading DXO years ago. Like the saying goes, garbage in, garbage out.

Enough said...


I understand the GIGO concept, but in the case of DXO I think the issue is something else. The input data are what they are and the output conclusions are not exactly wrong. The problem is more that people don't understand what the data from DXO mean, yet they jump to conclusions that the ratings are telling them things that the ratings can't say.

Dan



Nov 22, 2015 at 09:30 AM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII


gdanmitchell wrote:
I understand the GIGO concept, but in the case of DXO I think the issue is something else. The input data are what they are and the output conclusions are not exactly wrong. The problem is more that people don't understand what the data from DXO mean, yet they jump to conclusions that the ratings are telling them things that the ratings can't say.

Dan


I agree with Dan - Dxo data is useful and leads to questions that are not easily answered:

Example - if you compare Sigma 35/1.4 on d800 vs 5diii it yields 23/6 (mpx/ca) vs 17/6 respectively. Similarly zeiss 25/2 yields 22/5 on d800 and 15/5 on 1ds3. This suggests, there is some significant benefit to more mpx (not surprising) . However, surprisingly, the d800 does not even get close to 36mpx, which suggest the resolution is lens limited. Which on its own suggests in the wide range lens the benefits of an uwa are not great because the lens are the limiting factor.

However if you select the d800e, it achieves 30/6 - which in turn suggests that the resolution is not lens limited, but limited by the aa filter in the d800. Most dxo scores on d800e and d810 are 1/3 higher because they do not have the aa filter. And that leads to the question, is it real resolution or just false resolution because these tests are done with lines as opposed to more complicated test patterns ( that monito should like to know because he chose the 5ds vs me choosing the 5dsr )

And even as much interesting, the a7r with the best available lens in this range (sony 28/2) only achieve 24/18 (mpx/ca) which is a surprising outcome because the a7r does not have a aa filter and you would expect it to be able to achieve close to 30. Which leads to the question of whether the sony lens are just not as good in this range or is there some goofy choice that sony made that limited resolution in the wide range. Which questions whether all the people who moved to sony because of greater resolution in the time when canon did not have a high resolution camera were mislead by the available data. And then dxomark shows that in the 50mm range the a7r does perform to is 36mpx achieving 29/9 with the sony 55/1.8. So not the outstanding question is whether the a7rii fixes the problems of underperforming of a7r at wide mm or it remains.

This can only be answered by more data from a7rii and 5dsr from Dxo.

But ultimately, I agree with Monito, too much seeking of data ignores the other stuff like - familiarly with canon, battery life, the fact that I have lots of canon lens, and that mpx is only one measure of a good lens.

But I find it interesting.





Nov 22, 2015 at 04:57 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII


EB-1 wrote:
Dxo data is rather weak for lenses. There are better tests out there for review. But realistically both the Canon and Sony hi-res bodies are less than or about 6 months old. That's not way out of date.

EBH


They have been putting out test of both bodies stating a7rii is better than 5dsr for 3 months re dynamic range - surely they could have put a lens on both of the bodies to do one or two tests. Whats the point of a reference lens database that is not available until everyone makes their choice.

They should either do it (database / reviews) well or not at all.



Nov 22, 2015 at 05:08 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII


+1 — I like your analysis and agree with it, and with that final statement concerning too much analysis and (by extension) the pointlessness of going too far with this stuff when we actually have a pretty good idea that a lot of the equipment works very well regardless of the numerical descriptors coming from such tests.

Dan

Scott Stoness wrote:
I agree with Dan - Dxo data is useful and leads to questions that are not easily answered:

Example - if you compare Sigma 35/1.4 on d800 vs 5diii it yields 23/6 (mpx/ca) vs 17/6 respectively. Similarly zeiss 25/2 yields 22/5 on d800 and 15/5 on 1ds3. This suggests, there is some significant benefit to more mpx (not surprising) . However, surprisingly, the d800 does not even get close to 36mpx, which suggest the resolution is lens limited. Which on its own suggests in the wide range lens the benefits of an uwa are not great because the lens are
...Show more



Nov 22, 2015 at 07:26 PM
EB-1
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII


For most practical purposes there really is not a huge difference between 36MP of the D810, 42MP of the A7rII and 50MP of the 5DsR. You don't need DXO to figure that out. There are many reasons to choose one camera system over another, not purely by MP. Anyway, there will be a new cameras every few years. Will you switch from Canon to Sony to Nikon if the last has a better implementation of the Sony 42MP sensor? Then perhaps Canon will have a 64MP sensor with no AA filter at all and so on. It never ends.

EBH



Nov 22, 2015 at 07:35 PM
AJSJones
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII


Monito wrote:
Why are we even bothering with DxO? They jiggered their rankings so that when their own camera came out, voila it is the best in the world. We should believe them?

Look at http://the-digital-picture.com and read their detailed usage based reviews and compare lenses side by side at multiple apertures to form your own rankings. You know, like apertures you use a lot, not just wide open. You know, like practical things about cameras such as ergonomics and autofocusing.


Well DPR (in their comparison widgets) use DxO data to show those very things - CA, lw/ph at different aperture FLs etc. TDP now includes MTF at several different spatial frequencies at different distances off-axis courtesy Roger Cicala at lens rentals (so they are independent of camera used). Sensorgen takes DxO data and creates DR data directly in electrons read noise and full well etc. Asking one system or one number to describe all the properties of a lens or camera system is, well, simplistic. The DxO measurements in sensors are called DxO Sensor Marks (or similar) and make no claim to measure anything else - AF speed, or ergonomics etc. You takes your data from wherever and you put it together with your own weighting factors and let them help with decision making. You rely on trusted users to review AF speed, convenience, ergonomics etc etc

I agree with the general premise that DxO should have been using thr 5Ds(R) for any recent Canon lens measurements because that represents the best system to test it on (if you don't have one the analysers that Roger uses) and provides the best info on the lens. TDP has started using the 5Ds(R) for more recent tests, but back-filling with it on previous tests will take some time. No word that DxO is even thinking of it...



Nov 22, 2015 at 08:16 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII


EB-1 wrote:
For most practical purposes there really is not a huge difference between 36MP of the D810, 42MP of the A7rII and 50MP of the 5DsR. You don't need DXO to figure that out. There are many reasons to choose one camera system over another, not purely by MP. Anyway, there will be a new cameras every few years. Will you switch from Canon to Sony to Nikon if the last has a better implementation of the Sony 42MP sensor? Then perhaps Canon will have a 64MP sensor with no AA filter at all and so on. It never ends.


+1

I think that one useful "test" that we never see should be implemented.

Give skillful and talented photographers the test equipment and ask them to produce the very best 24" x 36" prints they can from each set of test equipment, using whatever techniques they can muster to generate the best output. Make sure that among the group there are equal numbers of photographers who use each brand. Then do a blind comparison test, with the other photographers in the group doing the ratings.

Or have a completely different group of expert photographers/printers do the rankings.

Dan



Nov 22, 2015 at 08:42 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Dxomark way out of date on Lens - No 5dsr, No a7rII


EB-1 wrote:
For most practical purposes there really is not a huge difference between 36MP of the D810, 42MP of the A7rII and 50MP of the 5DsR. You don't need DXO to figure that out. There are many reasons to choose one camera system over another, not purely by MP. Anyway, there will be a new cameras every few years. Will you switch from Canon to Sony to Nikon if the last has a better implementation of the Sony 42MP sensor? Then perhaps Canon will have a 64MP sensor with no AA filter at all and so on. It never ends.

EBH


You are likely right and maybe you are wrong. The d800e outperforms the d800 by 1/3 with both having a 36mpx sensor according to dxo.

And the a7r with uwa or wa really falls short of its potential.

Maybe the 5dsr really outperforms the a7rii because its not using such short flange lens.

We don't know because the tests are not shown. And that bugs me after 3 or 5 months. What kind of database/review system is dxomark - by the time they put out some useful data we will be debating a 64mpx camera.



Nov 23, 2015 at 12:04 AM
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