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Archive 2015 · Best way to "trade" 300mm f/4 for 300mm f/2.8 VR

  
 
Coltrane
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Best way to "trade" 300mm f/4 for 300mm f/2.8 VR


ariel777 wrote:
The longer this goes on and the good souls on this board continue to respond sensibly to the OP's comments, The more convinced I am that this guy is "pulling our leg".


I think you've nailed it.




Nov 07, 2015 at 11:19 PM
cputeq
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Best way to "trade" 300mm f/4 for 300mm f/2.8 VR


ariel777 wrote:
The longer this goes on and the good souls on this board continue to respond sensibly to the OP's comments, The more convinced I am that this guy is "pulling our leg".


I'd just call it first-time internet jitters. Still lots of people nervous about selling stuff on the internet especially if they've never done so, and the OP's starting with a ~$1k lens! I'd say he's just being a bit overcautious, not exactly a bad thing.


To the OP -- Best thing you can do is put it on the B&S forum for a fair price (after you've set up your PayPal account or whatever you want to take for payment) and then only sell it to an offeror with decent FM feedback score (say, 10+ or whatever threshold you want to set for yourself). FMers don't get good scores by being dirtbags

As a buyer, I'd probably trust your post because you've been at FM for years and have made 1k+ posts. Usually, scammers will have a very new account with very few postings. (plus, Paypal has buyer protection to make me feel better as a buyer--so that's why as a SELLER, you should probably only sell it to a good-standing FM member, as mentioned above, since a scammer could use PayPal protection against you whereas a legit FM member isn't going to pull that crap).



Nov 08, 2015 at 12:25 AM
plnelson
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Best way to "trade" 300mm f/4 for 300mm f/2.8 VR


davidnholtjr wrote:
If you're mail the item they send you the money with paypal and then you ship it.


I'm not familiar with how Paypal works, but why would anyone send money to some stranger without first seeing the lens? Is there some feature of Paypal that makes this safe?



Nov 08, 2015 at 02:06 AM
plnelson
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Best way to "trade" 300mm f/4 for 300mm f/2.8 VR


RLDubbya wrote:
Because it is rather unlikely you joined this board 11 years ago and made thousands of posts just to post a 300/f4 for sale that is somehow not what you represent it to be?


That still seems like a nonsequitur. What does someone's posting history have to do with their reliability as a seller? Those seem like two totally unrelated things.

This is the internet, guys; we're all strangers here and just because someone asks a lot of questions or makes a lot of comments doesn't say anything at all about whether they can be trusted in a business deal.

Several people here have mentioned PayPal, so what exactly is the deal with Paypal that takes the risk out these kinds of transactions?





Nov 08, 2015 at 02:13 AM
nolaguy
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Best way to "trade" 300mm f/4 for 300mm f/2.8 VR


plnelson wrote:
...but why would anyone send money to some stranger without first seeing the lens?


Dude, this is like your 37th reply saying the same thing. You're on the verge of convincing over a quarter million FMer's to never sell to you or buy from you.

If you can't fathom the concept of handshake agreements within a community wherein people care about their reputations, you should probably just keep the lens.



On the other hand, I get your point.

Buy three items off the board from members who have been here over two years, have more than 200 posts, and have at least 3 Great ratings on the B/S boards. At least one of your purchases should be more than a few hundred dollars. Do as you agree to do in the transactions, earn your stripes, get Great feedback and then sell your lens.


The mystery of gentlemen, integrity and honor may then be less vague to you.



Edit: I dislike old-eyes typos on my phone.


Edited on Nov 08, 2015 at 10:19 PM · View previous versions



Nov 08, 2015 at 02:24 AM
plnelson
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Best way to "trade" 300mm f/4 for 300mm f/2.8 VR


cputeq wrote:
As a buyer, I'd probably trust your post because you've been at FM for years and have made 1k+ posts.


See I still don't get that. I go to FM to ask questions, or sometimes offer opinions on topics I have experience with. That doesn't say anything about my character or trustworthiness. We're all complete strangers here. As the famous New Yorker cartoon once said, "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog." So really what difference does it make that I have a thousand postings, or whatever it is? That seems like a weird metric to use to decide whether to send someone money. I wouldn't do it; why would someone else? There must be some detail about this that I'm not getting but everyone else thinks is so obvious that they don't think it needs explaining.

Which brings us to PayPal. How does Paypal make someone more willing to send money to a stranger thousands of miles away?







Nov 08, 2015 at 02:49 AM
lorac
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Best way to "trade" 300mm f/4 for 300mm f/2.8 VR


plnelson wrote:
That still seems like a nonsequitur. What does someone's posting history have to do with their reliability as a seller? Those seem like two totally unrelated things.

This is the internet, guys; we're all strangers here and just because someone asks a lot of questions or makes a lot of comments doesn't say anything at all about whether they can be trusted in a business deal.

Several people here have mentioned PayPal, so what exactly is the deal with Paypal that takes the risk out these kinds of transactions?



Go to the Paypal site and do the reading to see how it works and what protections they offer. The seller doesn't ship until they've received payment. The risk is more with the buyer initially, that's why Paypal favors buyer protection. You know you can sell your lens to KEH or Adorama or B & H, but you'll get about half what you'd get selling on Ebay or an internet forum..



Nov 08, 2015 at 02:59 AM
plnelson
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Best way to "trade" 300mm f/4 for 300mm f/2.8 VR


nolaguy wrote:
If you can't fathom the concept of handshake agreements within a community wherein people care about their reputations, you should probably just keep the lens.



You're right that I don't fathom that. We're nothing but bit streams to each other. We're total strangers. I'm not even sure what you mean by "reputation". If I ask a question, or answer someone else's question on FM I don't check reputations first. I wouldn't even know how to do that. And I have no idea what my reputation is, and you're right that I don't care.

So let's take "trust" out of the equation and just talk mechanics - how does Paypal (or eBay or craigslist or whatever) make a transaction between two people who don't know each other from Adam safer?

Buy three items off the board from members who have been here over two years, have more than 200 posts, and have at least 3 Great ratings on the B/S boards. At least one of your purchases should be more than a few hundred dollars. Do as you agree to do in the transactions, earn your stripes, get Great feedback and then sell your lens.

I don't want to wait 2 years to sell my lens, and I seldom buy things used.





Nov 08, 2015 at 03:15 AM
plnelson
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Best way to "trade" 300mm f/4 for 300mm f/2.8 VR


lorac wrote:
Go to the Paypal site and do the reading to see how it works and what protections they offer. The seller doesn't ship until they've received payment. The risk is more with the buyer initially, that's why Paypal favors buyer protection. You know you can sell your lens to KEH or Adorama or B & H, but you'll get about half what you'd get selling on Ebay or an internet forum..


I read that but it seemed complicated and vague. The buyer files a complaint with PayPal and then
something happens. It's hard to tell how much confidence it would give a buyer.

I work as a consulting engineer (i.e., billable hours) and the amount of time I've already put into this just reading and posting to this thread works out to a significant fraction of what I could hope to get for the 300 f/4. So I'll just sell it through a dealer like KEH and accept the lower price just to cut this short and minimize the hassle.

This thread has confirmed my suspicion that buying and selling stuff between individuals on the internet requires a degree of trust that I just don't understand. When it comes to individuals I guess just don't trust them if I can't look them in the eye and shake their hand.

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.






Nov 08, 2015 at 03:33 AM
DaveOls
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Best way to "trade" 300mm f/4 for 300mm f/2.8 VR


Maybe you should just talk to Keh Camera to ask about what they would offer for it.


Nov 08, 2015 at 06:45 AM
cputeq
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Best way to "trade" 300mm f/4 for 300mm f/2.8 VR


plnelson wrote:
See I still don't get that. I go to FM to ask questions, or sometimes offer opinions on topics I have experience with. That doesn't say anything about my character or trustworthiness. We're all complete strangers here. As the famous New Yorker cartoon once said, "On the Internet, nobody knows you're a dog." So really what difference does it make that I have a thousand postings, or whatever it is? That seems like a weird metric to use to decide whether to send someone money. I wouldn't do it; why would someone else? There must be some detail about this
...Show more

Except you forgot about the part where I said usually scammers have new registrations and low post counts...meaning your history and post count here at FM is a good indicator (but yes not 100% proof) that you're at least not a scammer.

Also, I mentioned PayPal buyer protection, which is pretty generous on the buyer's side and can be abused. Which is why I said sell to a legit FM member who has a good feedback count and therefore, going by pretty good odds, isn't going to scam you just for the hell of it.

---

Your problem is you seem to be focusing on just one aspect of the entire transaction and breaking it down ad infinitum, instead of looking at how the whole enchilada works. Yes, Latin and Spanish food in the same sentence.



Let me further break down how this could all go down here at FM (which IMO is the best place to sell/buy photographic gear). This all assumes you ship promptly and describe the item accurately:


Option 1 -- You sell to a 'nobody' with nearly no post count or feedback
Risky on both ends. You advertise lens, buyer pays with PayPal, you send to buyer, buyer then enacts buyer protection (claiming you didn't send them what they paid for and PayPal believes them) and the buyer keeps your lens and your money. Welcome to the internet, full of douches.

Option 2 -- You sell to a 'nobody' with nearly no post count or feedback
But you get lucky and it's a legit buyer. Congratulations, you rolled the dice and won. You each leave one another feedback and get a nice little number with a green background.

Option 3 -- You sell to an established FM member with respectable feedback
FMer pays, gets lens, both people are happy, positive feedback for both. FMer is protected by the generous PayPal buyer protection, so that if you DO try to scam him/her, he could easily recoup the money and now you've 100% ruined your rep here at FM, so you'll never be able to buy/sell again because someone is going to trust a high feedback FMer over you.

Conversely, a good transaction and feedback from the FMer means they took a slight chance on you and you delivered, so yay for you -- +1 feedback from an established member is much better than +1 feedback from a 'nobody'.


I'm not sure I can break it down any further. You are correct, nothing is guaranteed except death and taxes, but that applies everywhere, not just internet sales.


If seeing an FM member with 50+ feedback (or whatever number) and over 10 years of forum participation isn't enough to make you feel okay with buying or selling to them, then I'd suggest contacting KEH or heck a pawn shop.

Risk vs reward. Yes, the risk of using FM (or ebay or whatever) is going to be slightly higher than KEH, pawn shop, etc. but a heck of a lot more rewarding.



Nov 08, 2015 at 09:38 AM
lorac
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Best way to "trade" 300mm f/4 for 300mm f/2.8 VR


plnelson wrote:
I read that but it seemed complicated and vague. The buyer files a complaint with PayPal and then
something happens. It's hard to tell how much confidence it would give a buyer.

I work as a consulting engineer (i.e., billable hours) and the amount of time I've already put into this just reading and posting to this thread works out to a significant fraction of what I could hope to get for the 300 f/4. So I'll just sell it through a dealer like KEH and accept the lower price just to cut this short and minimize the hassle.

This thread has
...Show more

I don't know if you'll check back or consider that a waste of more time. I can't see being happy only getting half the value of a lens because the buyer is a retailer who needs to mark it up for resale? I haven't read Paypal recently, but basically for a new account with a big ticket item you as the seller receive the funds but it is held by Paypal for release to make sure the buyer is satisfied. I have a good "reputation", but even when I sell on Ebay a big ticket item I'll get a notice from Paypal that the funds won't be available to me for say two weeks. Then in a couple of days they are available to me and I immediately transfer it from my Paypal account to my bank account.

The FM buy and sell forums have a very good reputation for being honest, as long as you deal with people with some positive feedback and that have participated on the forums many times. People care about their reputation, that's what makes it work.




Nov 08, 2015 at 11:10 AM
ariel777
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Best way to "trade" 300mm f/4 for 300mm f/2.8 VR


This thread should be preserved as an outstanding example of the good fellowship and patience of the general FM membership.


Nov 08, 2015 at 02:08 PM
Donzo98
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Best way to "trade" 300mm f/4 for 300mm f/2.8 VR


Another plus is that you wind up "meeting" a lot of really good people that you might actually develop friendships with.

I for one... enjoy the buying and selling of equipment. This is a hobby for me... so I totally understand that if you do this professionally, buying and selling of photo gear might be the LAST THING you want to do.



Nov 08, 2015 at 03:42 PM
binary visions
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Best way to "trade" 300mm f/4 for 300mm f/2.8 VR


Millions of people, including myself, happily buy and sell items online through eBay, Craigslist, forums and other areas all the time.

Yes, there are scammers. There are few guarantees in life. There's also no guarantee that the guy who you just handed a lens to won't knock you over the head and steal back his money and make a break for it.

If you can't accept that nothing is perfect, but buying and selling online is pretty safe, then it's probably not for you. That's not a bad thing, but if a whole bunch of people give perfectly reasonable answers to your concerns and you simply keep repeating those concerns, well, it's time to agree to disagree.



Nov 08, 2015 at 07:21 PM
nolaguy
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Best way to "trade" 300mm f/4 for 300mm f/2.8 VR


nolaguy wrote:
...You're on the verge of convincing over a quarter million FMer's to never sell to you or buy from you.


plnelson wrote:
And I have no idea what my reputation is, and you're right that I don't care.


Well, I think we just crossed the "on the verge" line.


Not for your sake or bother, Mr. Nelson (as we're clearly too far apart to find much useful common ground and I get that you're over this discussion), but for other's who might stumble upon this thread...

1) this B/S "system" has little reliance upon a person's goodness;


2) it is almost exclusively reliant upon their self-centered interests - that is to say their wish to be trusted so they may freely buy and sell as easily and profitably as possible;


3) Mr. Nelson is a marvelous case study in human psyche that does not follow the norm. Though he's been here a while and could have leveraged that into a preferred seller position, he has explained ad nauseum that he has no interest in his own credibility nor the ongoing opportunity to develop the very interesting, almost unspoken relationship many of us enjoy on the buy/sell board. We're now very clear that despite his history here, he places no stock in that, nor in ours, and so makes it very clear he isn't motivated, guided by or kept in check by the more common human-ground and selfish stuff most of us find useful.

Good to know.


4) most of us are selfish... and aware of how to manipulate people into trusting us by, well... being trustworthy.

Generally we find it to our advantage. That's the big take-away here.

Within the B/S world on FM, you generally can count on people tending to their self interest by indeed caring about their reputation and taking care of business.


5) But, maaaybe, sometimes you run across someone who (despite loads of time here over the years) is only interested in off-loading an expensive lens once and has zero interest in credibility or relationships - or in understanding them in the first place.

In that case, I guess - and I'm just spit balling here - that mayyybe sorta resets the counter and this hypothetical person might just as well have registered with FM yesterday?



This kind of reminds me of a movie from years ago... no clue what it was called or the names of the actors. The only thing I remember about it was one of the key characters explaining to another that he literally had no sense of humor.

Like, literally... the guy was absent the ability to understand why humans found some things amusing.


It's fascinating to interact with the occasional soul who simply does not operate or respond in a familiar fashion to most.


Again, good to know - and in general, to be aware such folks exist.




Nov 08, 2015 at 11:07 PM
pbraymond
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Best way to "trade" 300mm f/4 for 300mm f/2.8 VR


plnelson wrote:
My current body is a D800. But even if I had a body that could give me, say, 1EV better performance than the D800. the 2.8 would still add an EV on top of that and the VR would let me shoot handheld at an EV or two beyond that.

In other words, no matter what body I have, the advantages of the 2.8 VR would still make the package even better.


You are correct. The newer body provide better IQ for all your lenses, but f2.8 is still f2.8, and VR is still VR for static subjects. I assumed your profile was current (showing D200 and D300). I shoot some f2.8 zooms and there are times there is no great substitute for f2.8.




Nov 09, 2015 at 12:07 PM
Artscar2
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Best way to "trade" 300mm f/4 for 300mm f/2.8 VR


My teenager gets how PayPal works.
It doesn't need to be analyzed ad infinitum. Try this on. Why would anybody eat at a new restaurant that they had not tried before?
Good luck with your sale and your final choice.




Nov 09, 2015 at 07:09 PM
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