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Archive 2015 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?

  
 
Sir_Loin
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?


I spotted this the other day and I'm surprised that I've not seen much said about it?

http://petapixel.com/?s=Eos+mirror+less

If true, Canon are going to have to give it as much functionality as its DSLR cameras otherwise it'll flop just like the first EOS-M compact. Why it took them until the M3 to give the M series a decent spec is beyond me?

Who is this camera aimed at? (Me possibly!) Is Canon gunning for the Sony A7 series?

I'm interested to hear other people's thoughts.



Oct 31, 2015 at 07:55 AM
Paul Mo
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?


There is no reason for them not to hit one out of the park. Let's see what they come up with.


Oct 31, 2015 at 08:01 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?


I am convinced that Canon feels the pressure from the Sony A7 series and tries to make a sort of competitive product. Too early to predict its specs, but I really hope they but an equivalent sensor in there (resolution and DR-wise). Then it could be interesting!


Oct 31, 2015 at 08:02 AM
erikburd
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?


I would be very interested in a mirrorless camera for a second body.


Oct 31, 2015 at 08:37 AM
bernardl
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?


Not sure why I should be excited if they stick to their current sensor technology.

Cheers,
Bernard



Oct 31, 2015 at 08:42 AM
johnctharp
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?


The EOS-M was a flop in North America- even Canon couldn't overcome the market's aversion to mirrorless. However, it was not a flop in other markets, with compact, high-quality lenses that embarrassed the likes of Sony and Fuji at a fraction of the price.

Given that the EF-M mount can support a full-frame sensor, one would expect Canon to use all of the technology at their disposal, such as BR and DO elements in lenses and Dual-Pixel AF on the sensor, as well as hopefully upgraded sensors that can produce clean shadows, in providing a compact, high-performance mirrorless solution.

The key will be making 50MP+ suitable primes and zooms that take advantage of both the shorter flange distance and techniques to reduce the size of faster lenses. Canon needs to get their professional f/2.8 trio the 16-35/24-70/70-200 set, in a compact form factor, in order for their transition to professional mirrorless to succeed.



Oct 31, 2015 at 09:33 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?


Sir_Loin wrote:
I spotted this the other day and I'm surprised that I've not seen much said about it?

http://petapixel.com/?s=Eos+mirror+less

If true, Canon are going to have to give it as much functionality as its DSLR cameras otherwise it'll flop just like the first EOS-M compact. Why it took them until the M3 to give the M series a decent spec is beyond me?

Who is this camera aimed at? (Me possibly!) Is Canon gunning for the Sony A7 series?

I'm interested to hear other people's thoughts.


Some of us think that Canon is simply taking a different approach to developing and releasing a high end mirrorless camera — which makes sense if you think about the different situations of Sony and Canon in the high end* camera market.

Sony's introduction of their high quality mirrorless cameras was smart, even brilliant of them. They have apparently been trying to break into the high end camera market with a goal of becoming one of the top two companies — which likely means usurping Nikon. They had acquired technology from other companies (Minolta, Zeiss, for example) and applied their own technical prowess to produce a series of very competent DSLRs. Unfortunately for them, they didn't really go anywhere, despite their quality. With long-standing, trusted, reliable, high quality products from Canon and Nikon, both of whom have established reputations and customer bases, it wasn't enough for Sony to produce DSLRs that were just as good as Canon and Nikon or even just a bit better — this wasn't enough to differentiate them and get the attention of the market.

So, from Sony's point of view, moving fast on mirrorless technology was a way to get the market's attention — and they were right. That has certainly happened! (Fujifilm is following a similar path.) Because Sony's DSLRs weren't really moving all that fast, and because Sony's first goal was to get market penetration at the high end, there wasn't much to lose by decreasing attention on their DSLR products — and there was potentially a lot to gain by using mirrorless to differentiate themselves from Canon and Nikon. It didn't hurt at all that Sony produces their own sensors and could also push the initial A7r model on the basis of not just mirrorless design (about which some early buyers were actually neutral or reserving judgment) but also on the basis of a then-superior sensor with 50% more photo sites than the previous sensors from the competition plus excellent noise and DR performance.

Because Sony — at least in this market — was the "plucky outsider" rather than the lumbering insider (e.g. - not Canon or Nikon) this detour worked better for them than more DSLRs had, and because the products were marketed as being innovative, cutting edge technology (which, to a great extent, they are) they attracted the plentiful lovers of new stuff in the camera equipment world. This group — the "early adopter" types — tend to be more forgiving of certain rough edges as long as they get something innovative in return. And it worked. In exchange for getting the first full frame (innovative) mirrorless body (innovation) with a very good sensor (innovation), this kind of buyer was willing to deal with lens adapters (rough edge), slower or no autofocus (rough edge), certain issues with the camera files (rough edge), and so forth.

I think this was a brilliant Sony move, and perhaps just about the only one that would give them a decent foothold in the high end camera business.

What about Canon? Why didn't Canon "answer" Sony with a high end mirrorless camera? Is Canon incapable of innovation?

Canon (along with Nikon, though the situations are not identical) is in a very different place, and this affects their calendar for introducing a new and different product. Ask yourself two questions:

- If Canon came out with a new camera and it was only sort of semi-compatible with existing Canon lenses, would consumers be happy? For example, what if a long Canon zoom only AF'ed at short focal lengths on this new Canon camera? What if your existing Canon lenses required you to use adapters on the new camera?

- If Canon came out with a new camera and it used an entirely new lens mount system, rendering your existing lenses either incompatible or requiring the use of an adapter, how would the Canon market react in general?

Because Canon has a large base of consumers using their gear and invested in lenses and more, they cannot and should not introduce a Sony A7r style product on the same timeline. Sony's outsider status made that exactly the right decision for them, but Canon's situation would make that a tremendously dangerous choice, and they would risk not meeting customer expectations. (Keep in mind that Canon would not just be appealing to "bleeding edge" new adopters, but to customers who rely on the integration of the Canon system.)

Lenses and lens mounts present another complexity for a company like Canon. An easy solution would be to simply introduce a new mount designed for full frame mirrorless, with a shorter distance between the rear of the lens and the sensor and perhaps with a smaller mount diameter. However, things start to get complicated here. Would Canon also develop a new mount for cropped sensor mirrorless bodies — like the M mount? How would integration with older lenses be accomplished? Would it require adapters, and what effect would that have on the existing user base? Would the new mounts replace some older system — would EFS go away, for example? These are not trivial questions, and I suspect that Canon wants to have solid answers to them before their system comes out.

I'm certain that Canon is working hard on producing a high end mirrorless camera — and that it won't be an EOS M style camera when it comes. It will be something every bit as sophisticated as their high end DSLR systems, and it reliability and compatibility will be as well thought out — since a new Canon product that came without these things (even if it were identically as functional as the Sony A7r and A7rII)would tank.

Canon, like Sony, has made precisely (with a few glitches, no doubt) exactly the right decisions about how to best turn mirrorless into a successful product. For one company, a good mirrorless product was the wedge that differentiated them from their competition, and by and large it was executed quite well. For another company, when the products are released they must not only represent new technology, but they must have a higher state of integration and reliability than what the earlier company had to provide.

To be clear, I think both companies are on the right path — it is just that the paths cannot and should not be the same.

(There are ample precedent examples for similar though perhaps not identical circumstances. Consider Windows and Mac OS — from a non-judgmental point of view — for example. There was a time when Apple, as a company, was literally at death's door. Microsoft was flourishing. Many smart people were sure — as sure as some are today that Sony owns the mirrorless market — that Apple was a goner. Need I say more?)

Dan

* When I write "high end," it is shorthand for everything from prosumer DSLR class cameras up through the most expensive 1-series cameras.

Edited on Oct 31, 2015 at 09:56 AM · View previous versions



Oct 31, 2015 at 09:42 AM
mogul
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?


Why bother, Sony has this niche sewed up, Canon rules the large form factor and Sony rules the universal camera market.


Oct 31, 2015 at 09:49 AM
retrofocus
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?


gdanmitchell wrote:
Because Canon has a large base of consumers using their gear and invested in lenses and more, they cannot and should not introduce a Sony A7r style product on the same timeline.



I believe it would be a dangerous mistake if Canon would follow this. Their loss in profitability would increase more and more by this. Nevertheless, by introducing a Sony A7R-likke Canon mirrorless FF camera, prices for alternative Canon DSLR FF cameras would very likely drop. Maybe you are afraid of this to happen.



Oct 31, 2015 at 10:01 AM
Sir_Loin
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?


gdanmitchell wrote:
Some of us think that Canon is simply taking a different approach to developing and releasing a high end mirrorless camera — which makes sense if you think about the different situations of Sony and Canon in the high end* camera market.

Sony's introduction of their high quality mirrorless cameras was smart, even brilliant of them. They have apparently been trying to break into the high end camera market with a goal of becoming one of the top two companies — which likely means usurping Nikon. They had acquired technology from other companies (Minolta, Zeiss, for example) and applied their own technical prowess
...Show more

That's quite a post Dan! Thank you for your input. I'll be brief on a couple of thoughts I've had.

I would hazard a guess that if Canon are developing a full frame mirrorless camera, it's specification is going to have to be up there with its high end DSLRs because I agree with you, it'll bomb.

Regarding the lens mount, I personally think another variation of the EF mount would be a bad idea. OK, a mirrorless full frame camera gives more room for manoeuvre to develop more compact lenses capable of the image circle required for a full frame sensor. But the user base that have invested many ££££'s and $$$$'s in full frame lenses will feel a bit miffed that they have to buy more lenses to take advantage of a new system. I'm not a fan of adapters.

I'll stick my neck out on this one and say it'll have the standard EF mount.



Oct 31, 2015 at 10:05 AM
johnctharp
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?


Sir_Loin wrote:
I'm not a fan of adapters.


Should be clear here- the EF-M mount is literally the EF mount with a short flange distance, and the adapter is a simple electronic passthrough; it's an extension tube with a smaller mount on one end.

And whatever performance Canon can extract from a mirrorless AF system for mirrorless lenses will also apply to adapted DSLR lenses. It's already far more seamless than Sony's setup.



Oct 31, 2015 at 10:47 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?


Sir_Loin wrote:
That's quite a post Dan! Thank you for your input. I'll be brief on a couple of thoughts I've had.

I would hazard a guess that if Canon are developing a full frame mirrorless camera, it's specification is going to have to be up there with its high end DSLRs because I agree with you, it'll bomb.

Regarding the lens mount, I personally think another variation of the EF mount would be a bad idea. OK, a mirrorless full frame camera gives more room for manoeuvre to develop more compact lenses capable of the image circle required for a full frame
...Show more

I really don't know how Canon will resolve this. (It was easier for Sony since they didn't feel obligated to support an existing user base with an older mount, and for Sony the adapter approach was more viable given the there was initially no alternative.)

Consider what Canon could end up with:

EF — standard mount these days
EFS — basically the EF mount but allowing EFS lenses to protrude deeper into the mirror chamber.
EFM —
Some new mount for full frame mirrorless

EF and EFS (the latter is more of a lens specification than a mount) aren't much of an issue, since there are few EFS lenses and they are only typically used on cropped sensor cameras. EFM is interesting in that it supports EF/EFS lenses via adapters, for use on the cropped sensor EOS-M cameras. I wonder if Canon can use the EOS-M mount with EOS-M designed lenses that provide full frame coverage? A brief search came up with nothing on the subject.

If the EFM mount can work with new lenses designed to provide full frame coverage (I wish I knew...) then it could be relatively simple: EF continues for full frame DSLRs, EFS continues for a few lenses intended only for cropped sensor DSLRs (which will eventually fade away), and EFM accommodates new lenses designed for mirrorless directly and older EF and EFS lenses by means of adapters.

Since EFS is not so much a mount as it is a lens design specification, it would not be crazy for Canon to pay less attention to those lenses and simply make EF and EFM lenses... unless, of course, the EFM mount cannot accommodate lenses that give full frame coverage.

Tricky stuff...

Dan

After reading John's post above, in which he points out that EFM is EF with a shorter flange, I'm inclined to think that the EFM mount can support new lenses with full frame coverage on the shorter flange distance of a mirrorless system, and that we could see a system of EFM lenses that works with full frame. That would make things relatively simple — at least as simple as the Sony system with its adapters to accommodate lenses with a different mount.

Edited on Oct 31, 2015 at 11:26 AM · View previous versions



Oct 31, 2015 at 10:54 AM
mogul
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?


The EFM throat is the same size as Sony's E mount.


Oct 31, 2015 at 10:58 AM
arbitrage
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?


mogul wrote:
The EFM throat is the same size as Sony's E mount.


Does that mean they can cover FF sensor with the same mount? That would be a big plus. What about the current EF-M lenses, would they project onto a FF sensor or are they like EF-S and only project onto crop size sensor??



Oct 31, 2015 at 12:04 PM
mogul
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?


arbitrage wrote:
Does that mean they can cover FF sensor with the same mount? That would be a big plus. What about the current EF-M lenses, would they project onto a FF sensor or are they like EF-S and only project onto crop size sensor??

Currant lenses are cropped...just like Sony started with the Nex.



Oct 31, 2015 at 12:07 PM
arbitrage
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?


mogul wrote:
Currant lenses are cropped...just like Sony started with the Nex.


Thanks, that is what I thought. But they could keep the same EF-M mount and have FF variants? No need for another mount?? Is that correct?



Oct 31, 2015 at 12:09 PM
mogul
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?


arbitrage wrote:
Thanks, that is what I thought. But they could keep the same EF-M mount and have FF variants? No need for another mount?? Is that correct?

Correct...of course there is more to a camera than just a mount but it is a start.



Oct 31, 2015 at 12:10 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?


arbitrage wrote:
Does that mean they can cover FF sensor with the same mount? That would be a big plus. What about the current EF-M lenses, would they project onto a FF sensor or are they like EF-S and only project onto crop size sensor??


Current cameras using the EFM mount use cropped sensors, but that doesn't answer the question about whether the EFM mount is capable of supporting lenses providing full frame coverage.

I did a cursory search earlier today and I couldn't find anything that addresses the question in a concrete manner. On one hand, I didn't see anything confirming that it will do so, but I also didn't see anything suggestion that the mount only accommodates lenses with APS-C image circles.

I'd love to find a definitive answer to this. My bet? EFM can accommodate lenses providing a full frame image circle on mirrorless bodies.

(And I can imagine that somewhere in a Canon product development lab there is a "mule" full frame body with an EFM mount with some interesting lens attached...)



Oct 31, 2015 at 12:26 PM
Photonadave
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?


I doubt that the EF-M mount would accommodate a full range of focal length & wide aperture full frame lens designs as the mount appears to be a smaller diameter than the EF mount. See here for TDP's review of EF to EF-M adapter. Scroll down half a screen or so & click on the "side" view below the adapter picture. The outside diameter of the adapter necks down a bit on the EF-M camera mount end.


Oct 31, 2015 at 01:12 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Canon EOS full frame mirrorless?


Photonadave wrote:
I doubt that the EF-M mount would accommodate a full range of focal length & wide aperture full frame lens designs as the mount appears to be a smaller diameter than the EF mount. See here for TDP's review of EF to EF-M adapter. Scroll down half a screen or so & click on the "side" view below the adapter picture. The outside diameter of the adapter necks down a bit on the EF-M camera mount end.


It also positions the rear of the lens closer to the sensor plane, which allows lenses to be designed with smaller mount diameters. Someone suggested that the diameter is the same as enter manufacturer's systems that do allow full frame coverage.

Here is what we know:

- The EFM mount positions the rear of the lens closer to the sensor — as do other system mounts for rangefinder and mirrorless cameras in both full frame and other formats.

- The EFM mount has a smaller diameter than the EF mount.

- EF lenses can work on the EFM mount via adapters.

Here's what I think we also know:

- Other mirrorless systems with full frame sensors may work with openings with diameters similar to or the same as that of the EFM mount.

Here is what we don't know:

- Can a lens designed to work on the EFM mount, with its smaller than EF diameter and closer positioning to the sensor, provide full frame coverage?

So far I don't see anything definitive on that question.

Dan

Edited on Oct 31, 2015 at 03:21 PM · View previous versions



Oct 31, 2015 at 01:24 PM
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