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Archive 2015 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)

  
 
charlesk
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)


So I've been using this camera for quite a while and it's been pretty good to me. But I'm really itching to get something newer, with more features, and possibly more pixels. I mostly shoot landscapes, and also family stuff (for which anything will do). The 5DSr is obviously the one that I have my eye on. I probably won't buy anything until the spring, if I do.

(Wow, the 5Ds STILL has no GPS receiver? Sigh, Canon, you drive me crazy.)

Some questions that have been on my mind...

1. With the caveat that I know the disclaimers with respect to rumors, are there any rumors on a 5D4 yet?

2. How much more demanding of good glass is the 5DSr? My "bread and butter" lenses right now are the 24-105L and the new 70-300 IS L, which are both generally considered "good" but they obviously aren't top primes. Will I really be able to benefit from 50 MP?

3. Similarly with technique.. I handhold a lot, probably more than I should. Will this similarly give away the 5DSr's benefits?

4. I never did buy the 5D3. Should I consider getting one of those instead? I guess I'm kinda wondering how big the "delta" is between the 5D2 and 5D3 versus the 5D3 and 5DSr in terms of image quality, if it's enough to justify the much higher cost.

Thanks for your thoughts.

Edited on Aug 25, 2016 at 10:46 AM · View previous versions



Oct 20, 2015 at 02:31 PM
Monito
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)


I went from 5D2 to 5DS when it came out and I have been thrilled with my choice every time I've used it. I shoot a lot of landscape.

1. There have been rumours of the 5D4 ever since the 5D3 was announced. Give it some thought but very little.

2. This may seem counter-intuitive, but the answer is "not more demanding of good glass". A photo made on both cameras with a 50 mm f/1.8 STM lens (or any other lens) will look pretty much the same at all print sizes but the 5DS photo will look better in the larger print sizes and can look marginally better at medium print sizes. I picked the 50 as the example because it is an excellent lens at landscape and family f/stops (say f/4 to f/11), better than many people think.

If you print both at 19 x 13 inches (5D2 native resolution), then lens aberrations will be magnified the same amount since both have the same sized sensor. Likewise, if you print both at 30 x 20 inches (5DS native resolution), then lens aberrations will be magnified the same amount since both have the same sized sensor.

But at 30 x 20 inches and larger, the 5DS print will look better because it has the better sensor: better colour, better shadows, better resolution.

The origin of the idea (not really a 'myth' but sort of) that higher resolution sensors demand better glass and better technique is from pixel-peeping at 100%.

The truth is that higher resolution sensors benefit from better glass and better technique at all image sizes but especially at 100%. At equal images sizes (which is not equal pixel sizes) there is a slight benefit, one that I am pleased to have.

Don't worry about lenses. Your L lenses are just fine (excellent) on the 5DS. Don't sweat it. Just use your best photographic techniques and carry on.

One way the higher resolution sensor provides much greater options is that with good technique and good glass you can crop much more than the 5D2/3, say for wildlife or family snapshots.

3. Again, the 5DS (ignoring two of its features), will show camera shake the same as a 5D2, when printed at the same print size because they have the same sensor size.

But ... the 5DS has two excellent features for handheld: revolutionary mirror box and selectable lockup pause.

The former is a geared mirror box that significantly reduces shake. The latter affords a slight reduction in shake (I shoot with a 1/4 second mirror lockup delay handheld as a default).

With the two of them, I think I get about or nearly a full stop reduction in camera shake, but I have not measured it in a test.

4. Skip the 5D3. I did. I would have loved the 5D3 and might still replace my (now backup) 5D2 with a 3 some time later (for backup).

The delta between 5D2 and 5DS is an order of magnitude larger than the delta between 5D3 and 5DS. That is hyperbole but not far from the truth. It is partly because the 5DS has the same AutoFocus as the 5D3 which is much improved over the 5D2.

The thing is that the 5DS is such a fine camera, one where Canon got everything right for that price range. So many things have been tuned so nicely and there are several definite advances over 5D3 (colour, mirror box, resolution, improved shadows, intervalometer, selectable lockup pause, ...).

Bottom line, there is much more than high resolution to the 5DS but, yes, you will benefit from 50 megapixel.

Edited on Oct 20, 2015 at 03:12 PM · View previous versions



Oct 20, 2015 at 03:08 PM
Jeff
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)


No delta between the II and III's image quality, only feature set.

Huge delta between the image quality of the 5Ds and either the II or III, both in resolution and file quality. Don't bother with the III, the 5Ds is where it's at if you want both increased resolution and better image quality. (I've owned them all, FYI).



Oct 20, 2015 at 03:11 PM
Greg Schneider
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)


Agree with the above. I personally found a huge improvement in colour moving from the II to the III. I saw less improvement between the III to the 5Ds I recently rented, but it has improved, and the AWB is also far more accurate.


Oct 20, 2015 at 03:36 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)


charlesk wrote:
1. With the caveat that I know the disclaimers with respect to rumors, are there any rumors on a 5D4 yet?


There are, but they are relatively vague at this point. In general they do not suggest a camera that is particularly geared to landscape photographers. A somewhat higher MP 5D4 with higher ISO performance and possibly faster burst mode certain could work fine for landscape, but unless you need/want those things more than what the 5Ds/5DsR provides, it doesn't seem like what you are looking for.

2. How much more demanding of good glass is the 5DSr? My "bread and butter" lenses right now are the 24-105L and the new 70-300 IS L, which are both generally considered "good" but they obviously aren't top primes. Will I really be able to benefit from 50 MP?

Roger Cicala of Lensrentals wrote an article on some testing her did and he determined that a wide range of lenses could "perform better" on the higher sensor resolution camera. What about your 24-150mm and 70-300mm lenses? They are fine lenses, though they are not the sharpest of the L-series zooms. At their optimal focal lengths and with attention to there factors affecting sharpness, they will do quite well, but other lenses could do even better. However, in that regard you probably wouldn't see the "better-ness" unless you work quite carefully and print quite large.

3. Similarly with technique.. I handhold a lot, probably more than I should. Will this similarly give away the 5DSr's benefits?

That takes me back to what I just wrote. Most — though not quite all — of the benefits of the higher resolution 50.6MP sensor come from minimizing all things that degrade image sharpness and then from printing quite large. If you are shooting handheld most of the time, I have to wonder how much benefit you'll see from the higher resolution sensor. (You will get smaller noise "grain," potentially smoother gradients, and some other image quality improvements.)

4. I never did buy the 5D3. Should I consider getting one of those instead? I guess I'm kinda wondering how big the "delta" is between the 5D2 and 5D3 versus the 5D3 and 5DSr in terms of image quality, if it's enough to justify the much higher cost.

If you are considering a 5D3, then you might want to hold off and see what the 5D4 brings. The image quality improvements of the 5D3 over the 5D2 were trivial at best — most of the changes were functional. Unless you have having a problem with your 5D2 and need to replace it quickly at low cost, I wouldn't think the 5D3 would make a lot of sense for you.

(Update: I want to concur with some of the recommendations of the 6D. If you are happy with your 5D2 and don't need higher MP sensor photo site density, the 6D is a great value.)

Dan

Edited on Oct 20, 2015 at 05:41 PM · View previous versions



Oct 20, 2015 at 03:45 PM
Spikey131
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)


6D + glass


Oct 20, 2015 at 04:10 PM
justruss
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)


Spikey131 wrote:
6D + glass


As an upgrade from the 5D2? Really not worth the hassle or selling/buying, to squeeze out a tiny bit less noise at the highest ISO range.

If you're set on Canon-- a 5Ds(r), or the yet to be announced (and therefore still mythical) 5D4 is the answer.



Oct 20, 2015 at 04:25 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)


Spikey131 wrote:
6D + glass

justruss wrote:
As an upgrade from the 5D2? Really not worth the hassle or selling/buying, to squeeze out a tiny bit less noise at the highest ISO range.


I agree with most of what Russ said.

I upgraded from a 5DII to a 6D a couple of years ago, in order to get the 6D's significant improvement in IQ with high ISO, and its more-sensitive centre-point AF in low light (-3 EV). After using it for a bit, I realized that its 'soft shutter' was very sweet, and now I use a pair of 6D for low light events (when using ambient lighting, in a situation where discretion is required). I also use a 6D for landscape and other scenic photography, where it works very well. OTOH, if I only wanted a significant improvement in IQ for landscape photography in decent light, then I'd still be using the 5DII.

OTOOH, if I wanted a significant improvement in IQ for shooting landscapes right now, it would be either the Canon 5DS/R or Sony A7R II. I think there were some recent threads about this...

Here's a few more miscellaneous comments...

charlesk wrote:
...(Wow, the 5Ds STILL has no GPS receiver? Sigh, Canon, you drive me crazy.)


My 6D cameras have GPS and WiFi, but they're both battery pigs. I use the USB connection for driving the camera with my smart phone (GN3). If I need a geotag for some photos, I use the map that got me there, and write a note on my phone. I use GPS as a backup device, to confirm my location, not as my primary navigation tool.

charlesk wrote:
2. How much more demanding of good glass is the 5DSr? ... Will I really be able to benefit from 50 MP?


The larger you print, the more "yes" is the answer.

Also, the total resolution of a camera + lens system is the inverse of the sum of inverses of their individual resolutions. IOW, your lenses will provide higher resolution images on a higher resolution sensor. The lens warts will also be recorded with higher resolution, but overall, the balance of goods vs. bads will be preserved - at higher resolution.

Your 24-105L IS and 70-300L IS are fine lenses. There are better lenses that you could buy (some of them are not from Canon). Similarly, your 5DII is a fine camera. There are better cameras that you could buy (...). It's your call. When in doubt, buy glass. Otherwise, don't buy anything.

charlesk wrote:
3. Similarly with technique.. I handhold a lot, probably more than I should. Will this similarly give away the 5DSr's benefits?


Don't let your current practice limit your future photography. If you need better technique, then you can do that.

charlesk wrote:
4. I never did buy the 5D3. Should I consider getting one of those instead?


If you need significantly better AI Servo autofocus, then yes. Sounds to me like you don't need that.



Oct 20, 2015 at 05:06 PM
RobDickinson
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)


6d is a big improvement on a 5d2 if you ask me.

Much better built and interface, faster operation, and even the low ISO IQ and shadow noise is worth the change. At high ISO the 6d is much better.



Oct 20, 2015 at 05:58 PM
Nuchuga
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)


If i were in your position, id sell the mk2, purchase a mk3, sell the 24-105 and swap for 24-70, and then also purchase an ultra wide prime! Sorry if this isnt what you were looking for, just giving my 2 cents!


Oct 20, 2015 at 06:05 PM
charlesk
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)


Thanks for all the response. Lots of opinions, and generally seems like lots of love for the 5Ds. Which is great, except part of me was hoping to be talked out of spending $4k on a new camera.

As a landscape shooter I assume I want the "r" version? It seems most use it and they are more popular.

I totally get the point about pixel peeping at 100% when the sensor size is the same.

In reality I have to recognize that I've never been an uber-sharpness-freak anyway. I handhold because I like the freedom of not being tied to a tripod. So I view the tripod as tool to be used when it is needed and not something I have to use all the time. This generally has worked pretty well, and with better high ISO performance will work even better.

The 6D seems like a sideways move. I already have a fair bit of glass, the only things I want are long primes, but those are pricey and I am targeting this for future plans for travel where I would probably only take 3-4 lenses. My next glass purchase will probably be a 100mm macro IS (I have wanted IS on my 100mm macro for over 10 years! )

Thanks again. I may even end up selling some glass if I get the 5DS(r?) I have a set of TS-Es and I just don't use them as much as I thought I would so I might sell 1 or even 2.



Oct 20, 2015 at 09:53 PM
Paul Mo
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)


Nuchuga wrote:
If i were in your position, id sell the mk2, purchase a mk3, sell the 24-105 and swap for 24-70, and then also purchase an ultra wide prime! Sorry if this isnt what you were looking for, just giving my 2 cents!


That's sound advice - if you buy a good used body.

Any 5D4 will be overpriced (just my opinion) upon release, as was the 5D3 considering the slight IQ gains over the 5D2 - it is often better to wait for prices to ease. Look for the 5D4 but be prepared to be patient and watch those prices fall.



Oct 21, 2015 at 12:04 AM
Nuchuga
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)


Absolutely. As with any photo gear, especially bodies, they come out high priced and are several hundred dollars cheaper within a year. Imo, id wait for release info of the 5D4 and when that is released the ds or dsr will be significantly cheaper and it is then that would make the most sense as a time to decide.


Oct 21, 2015 at 12:08 AM
justruss
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)


Here's a little more explanation of my previous post.

What drives my response to avoid the 6D or 5D3 as a lateral move is that the OP said he mostly shoots landscapes. That's the key factor.

If you're mostly shooting landscapes, the main improvements of the 6D (high ISO) and 5D3 (AF) really don't come into play in a major way. So the OP would be incurring the cost and hassle to acquire improvements (which are real, of course), that don't help the OP in the majority of his photography.

That leaves the 5Ds, D810, and A7rII, which unlike a lateral move for landscape work-- would be a major upgrade. You'd be forgiven for not noticing the changes in landscape work going from a 5D2 to 6D/5D3-- but not for missing the changes going to a 5Ds, D810, A7rII.

If the OP already has Canon glass, and doesn't feel compelled to either go through the hassle of switching to Nikon or Sony, or the issues around using Canon glass on Sony bodies-- the 5Ds is the natural upgrade path. The 5Ds is the resolution king at the moment, has great colors, better DR than other Canons, and is familiar to the OP who has the glass to match. The Nikon offers better DR at the cost of switching and less resolution. The A7rII offers better DR and smaller body at the cost of all the Sony issues rehashed more than enough elsewhere.

I believe in the principle of inertia when it comes to camera upgrades: Trust the sense to stay put (either within the brand you have, or with the camera you currently own) until the benefits to switching outway the costs (not only financial).

OP: If you shop around you can probably spend well less than $4K to get one of the new 5Ds(r) models. More like sub-$3000. The difference of going to either of those cameras is so much bigger than the s vs. sr differences. If one is substantially cheaper-- I'd get that. Come spring, you'll likely get an even better deal, and perhaps have more options on the table



Oct 21, 2015 at 03:00 AM
charlesk
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)


Thanks. Russ's thinking is pretty much inline with mine, which is why I skipped the 5D3.

Bodies are a money sink. I'm not going to get a new one more than once every few years until and unless I can make some real money from my photography, which is proving more difficult than I imagined (despite low expectations).

I've thought for some time that Canon was lagging behind Sony and Nikon in terms of improvements in resolution, DR and features. The 5Ds seems to have evened the field somewhat. I don't want to deal with the hassle of using Canon lenses on the Sony or selling everything and starting over with Nikon.

I am aiming for a purchase in late winter or early spring when maybe there will be a sale or I can find a used model if say a new pro camera comes out.



Oct 21, 2015 at 08:02 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)


To do a quick summary of my thinking on the OP's question and scenario:

- If the OP is generally happy with the results from the 5D2 and simply wants a newer camera with similar though improved capabilities, the 6D is a great option.

- If the OP is happy with the resolution of the 5D2 but would like a similar camera with improved AF and some other features, the 5D3 could be a good choice.

- If the OP wants an upgraded version of the 5D3 in his next camera, with its focus on some non-landscape oriented features, then waiting to see what the 5D4 looks like could make sense, if he is willing to keep using the 5D2 a bit longer.

- If the OP has a need for the higher resolution that some landscape photographers are looking then the 5Ds/5DsR option is a fine one.



Oct 21, 2015 at 09:42 AM
hotdog12
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)


I used two 5D II bodies for editorial photography for years; I only upgraded to 5D III bodies because I desperately needed the superior autofocus. Although there are several nice tweaks in the 5D III, the image quality is identical to the 5D II in normal light.

You're going to need the very best glass you can get your hands to utilize the resolution of the 5DS/R. Sure, it will look good with any lens, but Canon's newest lenses appear to be targeted to this bad boy. Also, to maximize every bit of image quality, you are going to have to step up your game in camera handling.



Oct 21, 2015 at 09:55 AM
charlesk
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)


I'm not sure how much here is "need" versus "want". The body still works, I could use it for several more years. But I could still be using my 10D as well, right?

I would probably be fine going to the 5D3 or 6D. I have probably never printed an image so large that I really needed 50 MPixels. But that's now. I am currently printing images I took 10 years ago where I wish I had more pixels.

We are planning a couple of trips next year and it just seems to me that if I'm going to spend a bunch of money on a trip and a bunch of time taking pictures, I should use the best tool I can manage for a reasonable cost. I'm even considering buying the 5Ds, using it for the trip, and then selling it.

I cannot afford to buy a pricey camera and also a bunch of new pricy glass. hotdog, I am not sure which lenses you are talking about specifically. For traveling, I generally only take at most 5 lenses: my 24-105, the 100-300, a macro lens, a 50 1.4 prime (which I rarely use) and possibly my 16-35. But to be honest the 16-35 doesn't get used all that much, because in most cases when I want to go super wide, I do a pano. I usually only need the 16 for night photography.



Oct 21, 2015 at 10:52 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)


charlesk wrote:
part of me was hoping to be talked out of spending $4k on a new camera.


Your OP title was about "long term thinking". If the $4K camera (really getting closer to $3K) is one that serves your needs for the next 5-8 years, then it's a $$$ / month or $$$ / image.

As to the prospect of what the future holds for MP advances, etc. ... the answer to that really is in your printing usage as 20x30 will still be 20x30 ... even 5-10 years from now. Unless there is a major change in the printing industry, your MP / PPI / DPI relationships are going to hold true today as they did yesterday as they will tomorrow.

As to the lack of a GPS battery hog ... if that is holding you back from 50MP, you probably don't need 50MP. Personally, I've stood pat on 14MP for nearly a decade ... my perspective that anything less than a doubling of MP isn't my target jump (long term thinking). Granted, I do desire some of the newer features ... and have some in the form of a newer secondary body (700D @ modest short term, hand-me-down $$$ vs. investment upgrade), but features aren't (imo) what drives your decision making when it comes to long term thinking.

I'm between the 5D III and the 5DsR ... which really means I'm wishing for a 5D4 or 5DX to hit my sweet spot for a long term investment. I got excited about the A7R for a bit, but the AF compatibility turned out to be a bust for me. The 6D (as others mentioned) is certainly meritable, but the question you have to ask yourself is what is the staple of my needs for my style of shooting. If you're a heavy geo-tagger ... then maybe built in GPS is important to you. But, in the vein of keeping the main thing the main thing ... sometimes it can be challenging to not be led toward all the shiny new things being dangled in front of us and lose sight of what the main thing is for you.

HTH ... GL

Edited on Oct 21, 2015 at 11:26 AM · View previous versions



Oct 21, 2015 at 11:14 AM
charlesk
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Still seeking advice on upgrade from 5D2 (with trip in under a month!)


My main "needs" (really wants) right now are mainly in the areas of better high ISO performance and better DR. I had heard originally that the 5Ds didn't improve in the area of DR but now people are saying it is better, though I am not sure by how much.

I really had hoped that by now we would have seen dramatic DR improvements, but I guess I have to settle for stepwise ones.

For GPS tagging I used to shlep around a separate GPS unit which was a real pain. I now can do this through my smartphone, which I will have with me anyway, so I can deal with it.



Oct 21, 2015 at 11:24 AM
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