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Archive 2015 · D7200 Nailed It @ ISO12800!

  
 
Andre Labonte
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · D7200 Nailed It @ ISO12800!


Kerry Pierce wrote:
Looking good, Andre. The first set is quite impressive to me, although I'm not too sure about the NR. Maybe a TAD is a little too aggressive? Dunno for sure, I can't really put my finger on it. But, again, I don't shoot that high any more, so I could be way out of touch.

I'm also confused about your statement about WB and noise. AFAIK, WB has no effect on noise. Indeed, there are some situations with fluctuating lighting where you will never get a good WB, but you can get relatively clean photos with proper exposure. I
...Show more


********************

Thanks Kerry,

Thanks. On the 1st set I did not realize that Capture NX-D was applying some heavy NR when converting from RAW to JPG ... I figured it out after posting the images (read further on in the thread). On the 2nd set (2nd game; this thread) I made sure no NR was applied to the images in conversion.

Regarding the WB ... I know that WB is not supposed to effect the noise and image quality when shooting in NEF format, and that certainly holds true at ISO values of 1600 and below. But I'm finding that at these super high ISO values (>10K), that is not necessarily holding true.

I shot two games on the same field under the same lights with the same D7200 and all the same setting with the exception of WB. The first game I shot with the WB at a color temp of 5200 and corrected in post using Capture NX-D and the second game I shot with the WB at a color temp of 3900 (the correct setting) and the image quality is significantly better from the second set of images.

Others in the sports forum seem to have had the same experience with their cameras at HIGH ISO settings (e.g. 10K and above). I did not believe it at first but my personal data set with my D7200 has convinced me it's true.

Whether it's a camera or software issue I cannot tell you.

Cheers,
Andre





Oct 11, 2015 at 07:22 PM
WestcoastHD
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · D7200 Nailed It @ ISO12800!


Hi Andre, I came across this comparison that discusses the differences between 12 and 14 bit RAW. I think it's a good read from a reputable source.

https://photographylife.com/14-bit-vs-12-bit-raw




Oct 11, 2015 at 08:26 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · D7200 Nailed It @ ISO12800!


WestcoastHD wrote:
Hi Andre, I came across this comparison that discusses the differences between 12 and 14 bit RAW. I think it's a good read from a reputable source.

https://photographylife.com/14-bit-vs-12-bit-raw





Well, that answers that question. I did the same test shooting one game in 14 and one in 12 and I see no difference either. I'm shooting 12 now and getting better buffer depth and card capacity.

Thanks for the link.



Oct 11, 2015 at 09:29 PM
londonfire
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · D7200 Nailed It @ ISO12800!


Thanks. I used to live in Latham.


Oct 12, 2015 at 09:44 AM
snapsy
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · D7200 Nailed It @ ISO12800!


Andre Labonte wrote:
********************

Thanks Kerry,

Thanks. On the 1st set I did not realize that Capture NX-D was applying some heavy NR when converting from RAW to JPG ... I figured it out after posting the images (read further on in the thread). On the 2nd set (2nd game; this thread) I made sure no NR was applied to the images in conversion.

Regarding the WB ... I know that WB is not supposed to effect the noise and image quality when shooting in NEF format, and that certainly holds true at ISO values of 1600 and below. But I'm finding that at these
...Show more

When shooting in partial-spectrum lighting (ie, not daylight or not daylight-matched artificial lighting) the blue channel of the image requires extra boosting in order to achieve proper WB. The lower the K-temp of the scene's actual WB, the more boosting required to achieve a normalized (ie, "correct") output WB in your image. Because the blue channel is the least light-sensitive channel in a CMOS sensor it is typically the noisiest channel as well. Boosting it to achieve proper output WB exaggerates the noise even more. By using an output WB of 3900 instead of 5200 you're boosting the blue channel less, resulting in less noise, at the expense of accepting a less "correct" WB (ie, cooler image).



Oct 12, 2015 at 10:33 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · D7200 Nailed It @ ISO12800!


Cool! Thanks for the explanation. As it turns out 3900K is the correct temp, but based on what you say, it makes sense that noise is added if I was shooting at 5200 when 3900 is what was needed.

snapsy wrote:
When shooting in partial-spectrum lighting (ie, not daylight or not daylight-matched artificial lighting) the blue channel of the image requires extra boosting in order to achieve proper WB. The lower the K-temp of the scene's actual WB, the more boosting required to achieve a normalized (ie, "correct") output WB in your image. Because the blue channel is the least light-sensitive channel in a CMOS sensor it is typically the noisiest channel as well. Boosting it to achieve proper output WB exaggerates the noise even more. By using an output WB of 3900 instead of 5200 you're boosting the blue channel
...Show more




Oct 12, 2015 at 12:09 PM
Carlos Salcedo
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · D7200 Nailed It @ ISO12800!


snapsy wrote:
When shooting in partial-spectrum lighting (ie, not daylight or not daylight-matched artificial lighting) the blue channel of the image requires extra boosting in order to achieve proper WB. The lower the K-temp of the scene's actual WB, the more boosting required to achieve a normalized (ie, "correct") output WB in your image. Because the blue channel is the least light-sensitive channel in a CMOS sensor it is typically the noisiest channel as well. Boosting it to achieve proper output WB exaggerates the noise even more. By using an output WB of 3900 instead of 5200 you're boosting the blue channel
...Show more

Wait... let me understand your point here...

Are you saying that if I shoot a RAW file and I set my WB at 5200K (when the native WB was 3900K) that the resulting file will have higher noise than the RAW file shot at 3900K in the first place?




Oct 12, 2015 at 12:25 PM
snapsy
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · D7200 Nailed It @ ISO12800!


Carlos Salcedo wrote:
Wait... let me understand your point here...

Are you saying that if I shoot a RAW file and I set my WB at 5200K (when the native WB was 3900K) that the resulting file will have higher noise than the RAW file shot at 3900K in the first place?

No, the underlying noise in the file will be the same. Using different WB values only alters how noticeable the noise will be. Similar to how the noise in an underexposed image will be more noticeable the more you boost the exposure in post.



Oct 12, 2015 at 12:46 PM
James R
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · D7200 Nailed It @ ISO12800!


The most important thing you can do in photography is "Get the shot." Good to know you can do that with the new camera, even in bad lighting situations. Wonder what the images would look like if you applied a "tad" more NR to the dark areas of the background?


Oct 12, 2015 at 01:42 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · D7200 Nailed It @ ISO12800!


James R wrote:
The most important thing you can do in photography is "Get the shot." Good to know you can do that with the new camera, even in bad lighting situations. Wonder what the images would look like if you applied a "tad" more NR to the dark areas of the background?




So do I but I have no idea how to selectively apply NR. I've never been big on PP ... and the idea of taking a class to learn how to learn Adobe never appealed to me.



Oct 12, 2015 at 02:35 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · D7200 Nailed It @ ISO12800!


snapsy wrote:
No, the underlying noise in the file will be the same. Using different WB values only alters how noticeable the noise will be. Similar to how the noise in an underexposed image will be more noticeable the more you boost the exposure in post.


**********************

Hmmm .... then I misunderstood you. What I'm saying is the WB setting in camera seems to be impacting the noise in the image even when corrected in post.




Oct 12, 2015 at 02:36 PM
snapsy
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · D7200 Nailed It @ ISO12800!


Andre Labonte wrote:
**********************

Hmmm .... then I misunderstood you. What I'm saying is the WB setting in camera seems to be impacting the noise in the image even when corrected in post.



That can't be, not in the raw image anyway. If anything it's the PP tool doing the WB normalizing I discussed. Still, if you have two images shot of the same scene but with different camera-WB settings I can have a look.



Oct 12, 2015 at 02:56 PM
Kerry Pierce
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · D7200 Nailed It @ ISO12800!


Andre Labonte wrote:
********************

Thanks Kerry,

Thanks. On the 1st set I did not realize that Capture NX-D was applying some heavy NR when converting from RAW to JPG ... I figured it out after posting the images (read further on in the thread). On the 2nd set (2nd game; this thread) I made sure no NR was applied to the images in conversion.

Regarding the WB ... I know that WB is not supposed to effect the noise and image quality when shooting in NEF format, and that certainly holds true at ISO values of 1600 and below. But I'm finding that at these
...Show more

Thanks for the info, Andre. Other than just fooling around, I've never shot anything higher than 6400 ISO, and even that is rather rare these days. So, the notion that WB may affect noise above 10K is beyond my experiences and quite interesting. I'll have to keep that in mind and maybe do some testing to see how that works out. Snapsy seems to be Da Man on that stuff.

One thing you need to be careful of is how much NR a given program/camera will perform without your being able to control it. AFAIK, most Nikons will automatically do a certain amount of NR as the ISO goes higher. The same applies to Nikon Capture, I think and probably NX-D as well. IOW, I think that with those programs/cameras, you're going to get a certain level of NR whether you want it or not.

Regardless, there were (are??) many artificial lighting situations where a good WB is impossible to get, ie mercury, sodium vapor and even fluorescent lighting that fluctuates in color and intensity with the AC current. Here's a sample below, which shows distinct differences in color and brightness due to the fluctuation of the overhead lighting. I have dozens of these type photos from various local hockey rinks, which seem to be the worst offenders where I live.

http://www.pbase.com/kerrypierce/image/70019905.jpg

WRT to selective application of NR, there are several programs and methods of doing that. I've not needed to do it for quite some time, but I assume that modern NR tools still have the same methods. IIRC, Noise Ninja or Noiseware had a noise "brush" that you could use selectively. Most commonly, I just used selections and/or layers to do the areas that needed it.

Good stuff, Andre. I always like learning stuff and you're getting me charged up with new incentives to maybe get back into the game a little.

thanks
Kerry



Oct 12, 2015 at 03:29 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · D7200 Nailed It @ ISO12800!


snapsy wrote:
That can't be, not in the raw image anyway. If anything it's the PP tool doing the WB normalizing I discussed. Still, if you have two images shot of the same scene but with different camera-WB settings I can have a look.


*********************
Unfortunately, being sports, its never of the same scene ... and up until now my understanding is that WB will not effect raw images as I have described ... so there is likely some factor I am not correcting for.




Oct 13, 2015 at 10:12 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · D7200 Nailed It @ ISO12800!


birdied wrote:
Hope you don't mind Andre, but I did some selective noise reduction. There are many ways to achieve the same results, this just happens to be what is quick and easy for me.

Below are the steps I used.

Will take the shots down if you wish.

Glad you are enjoying your D7200.

Birdie




Nice!

I've never had great luck with the magic selection tool only selecting what I want... and you can see in your example where there are spots on the player that did not get selected and thus got NR applied. I suppose if they are non-critical spots it does not matter.

The other side is I cannot imagine taking he time to do this to all my images ... but I suppose it's worth the effort and I just need to spend the time practicing.

Thanks for the demo.




Oct 13, 2015 at 10:15 AM
Carlos Salcedo
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · D7200 Nailed It @ ISO12800!


I've been playing with Macphun's Noiseless Pro and I'm learning how to create a custom preset for football high ISO shots. Basically, creating a preset that will take the fine details and dark backgrounds into account. I am finding that since Noiseless Pro lacks control-points I can create multiple layers that can really fine tune the different levels of NR that I like. You can use layer masks and get it done pretty quickly.

I am also working on using CameraRaw as a filter to also dodge/burn to a much better degree than just the dodge/burn brush.

Maybe I will create a quick tutorial if anyones interested.

This is more for portfolio and prints. My blog images are more quick & dirty edits since I like to get them up by the next morning.



Oct 13, 2015 at 10:36 AM
Charles Loy
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · D7200 Nailed It @ ISO12800!


Nice shots, clean at the iso. This use a Sony sensor? <---- I am sure this has been answered, but I seldom read the crop threads, so I don't know.


Oct 16, 2015 at 11:01 AM
Kerry Pierce
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · D7200 Nailed It @ ISO12800!


Carlos Salcedo wrote:
I've been playing with Macphun's Noiseless Pro and I'm learning how to create a custom preset for football high ISO shots. Basically, creating a preset that will take the fine details and dark backgrounds into account. I am finding that since Noiseless Pro lacks control-points I can create multiple layers that can really fine tune the different levels of NR that I like. You can use layer masks and get it done pretty quickly.

I am also working on using CameraRaw as a filter to also dodge/burn to a much better degree than just the dodge/burn brush.

Maybe I will create
...Show more

I'm on a PC, so can't use Macphun's stuff. But, I'm always interested in learning, so if you want to do a tut on dodge/burn with ACR, I'd be appreciative. Of course, I'm sure the Mac users would like the noise tut too.

thanks
Kerry



Oct 16, 2015 at 03:17 PM
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