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Archive 2015 · The other side of the mountain

  
 
ben egbert
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · The other side of the mountain


I got a tip yesterday that the colors were peaking up here. This is the east side of Mt Timpanogos looking due west. The earlier shot was from the south west side looking north east.

I hiked in here in the dark and was seeing some sky color on the way in. I was treated to this scene as it developed.

I would like to show this at landscape but want to test my processing here. This is cropped to 16x9, The bottom has trees that are bare.

Please let me know. This is mostly a single with just a bit of alpenglow blended in from another shot. The colors were really bright, and I don't feel like its over processed, but it may seem that way.









blended







unblended




Sep 26, 2015 at 12:34 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · The other side of the mountain


Ben,

The red channel looks blown in a various places. Would like to see the sooc, to better see how the lighting is laying onto your scene (looks like it is coming from the southern exposure.

Something doesn't quite jive right for me. Of the two, the second one looks more plausible, but it just seems "less" of the same things that are happening in the first.



Sep 26, 2015 at 01:26 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · The other side of the mountain


Here ya go, the one with clouds and the one with alpenglow. You seldom get both at the same. time.

Both are dark and of course pretty flat. I noticed that this is a case where sRGB does not support the color gamut of prophoto. When I do a soft proof to sRGB, the clouds blow out.

I am going to start over from scratch and watch the saturation and see when I exceed sRGB.










file for alipnglow




Sep 26, 2015 at 01:33 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · The other side of the mountain


Starting over from scratch.

This is another blend but I watched the sRGB soft proof as I went. The cloud just above the mountain has some hues that sRGB cannot handle. But even though they won't show, the thing that was blowing them was my shadow highlight step. I masked the sky in this case.

I have sat at +10 and vibrance +8 in ACR, otherwise no saturation was added here.

I feel like this one could use some gamma, and some added sat in the foreground yellow and reds of the mountain. But I want to work up to it.







start from scratch, pre saturation and crop




Sep 26, 2015 at 02:00 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · The other side of the mountain


Here is the same one with the sky darkened a bit, and the foreground lightened and some sat added to the mountain and yellows. then cropped.









Sep 26, 2015 at 02:22 PM
AuntiPode
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · The other side of the mountain


Consider restoring cloud detail:







Sep 26, 2015 at 02:45 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · The other side of the mountain


AuntiPode wrote:
Consider restoring cloud detail:


Thanks Karen, I just got done working yet another one. This detail is fine in prophoto, but sRGB just does not take it. So I started with a darker version and did another from scratch.

No matter what I do, when I go back and forth from prophoto to srgb, some color just goes away. But here is one that I stayed darker in the sky and even cut some reds in that area. I have not bothered to blend in the alpinglow.

Like to hear if this works. I have a monitor that only simulates sRGB, so I may not be seeing this like others do.











Sep 26, 2015 at 03:13 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · The other side of the mountain


This is a case of posterization. The lightest part of the red channel is 246 before conversion, but 255 after.

Here is the same file saved in aRGB, not sure your browser will show aRGB, but the blown reds are fixed.

I am thinking of converting in sRGB as I open it to see if that solves the issue for web. My printer will print it fine.





aRGB version




Sep 26, 2015 at 03:33 PM
AuntiPode
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · The other side of the mountain


Removed this comment because I've realize it was erroneous.

Edited on Sep 26, 2015 at 06:48 PM · View previous versions



Sep 26, 2015 at 03:45 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · The other side of the mountain


Where are you finding this? I checked the area you circled, and yes, the convert to sRGB has some 255 in the red channel, but the aRGB does not at least in that area. When I view these on my wide gamut monitor, I see a difference between the sRGB version and the aRGB.

But here is another where I started in sGB.

I can open the raw, put an eyedropper in the bright section of cloud and red is 246 in prophoto but 255 in sRGB. Thats before I make any adjustments.

So I opened the file with sRGB and I even used the adjustment brush to darken some of the red. Here is the result.









sRGB assigned at raw conversion and red channel protected




Sep 26, 2015 at 04:05 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · The other side of the mountain


This is really an interesting problem. In aRGB or prophoto, I have no blown reds, not even close. I can adjust down to 200, and the raw is around 240 R. But as soon as I go into sRGB. that value jumps to 255 and of course there is nothing that will fix that.

I have tried using other color profiles, and have tried to reduce the red channel. I made one more where I got all but one tiny bit at 255 when viewing in sRGB. I converted back to prophoto and it was all the way down to 200. I finished working it in prophoto all the while making sure that the value never went up. When done, and converting to sRGB, it was still 255 and the best I can do with only one area at this level.

I am not happy with the image however, the rest is too dark and maybe too saturated. I will try again, but unless somebody knows how to fix it, the sRGB version will have that blown red channel.

I have brackets but this is the darkest image. In prophoto I can even use the middle bracket. I have run into this before but this is the first time I have worked it this hard.




Sep 26, 2015 at 05:50 PM
AuntiPode
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · The other side of the mountain


I presume fixing that would begin with the original/s and observing each step in the post processing to discover when the problem is introduced with the fix possibly depending on the source of the problem.


Sep 26, 2015 at 06:19 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · The other side of the mountain


AuntiPode wrote:
I presume fixing that would begin with the original/s and observing each step in the post processing to discover when the problem is introduced with the fix possibly depending on the source of the problem.


Well that is exactly what I did and the problem starts with convert to sRGB. How do you fix that? I mean in raw with no other changes.

My latest version is 255 in that cloud in sRGB and simply converting to Prophoto changes it to 200.

The simple fact is that the color is out of the sRGB range. Unless somebody can give me another explanation.

I posted the sooc, it would be easy to check. I could link the raw if anyone cares.

I am ready to post at Landscape. I am leaving town monday and wanted to get at least a days worth of comments. I think the one I have is suitably tamed for the forum. It ends up a lot darker than I like.

I even considered cloning in some other parts of the cloud, but this is a problem with stone age technology..





Sep 26, 2015 at 06:49 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · The other side of the mountain


There are settings in Photoshop that provide instructions for what it is to do with the out of gamut areas upon conversion.

It's been a long time since I've researched the different aspects of the settings, but iirc (crude memory on the matter), there is a setting that will try to make an equivalent conversion to the actual value, in which case you can get some clipping, but will make more "accurate" conversions within the sRGB space, when it can.

The other way is to have it do a "relative" scale adjustment (very crudely think the diff @ logarithmic vs. linear) that will tuck everything inside the color space ... kinda like an accordion effect with more compression to keep it from clipping, then less compression as things "thin out" to the norm's in the new space.

There is about four diff parameter matrix @ how you can set it up, iirc. Again, it's been a long time since I researched it, but you might take a look at your settings for conversion preferences. Something about perceptual vs. absolute or some such thing also.

Consider this a crude "primer" rather than actual info ... been too long ago.



Sep 26, 2015 at 08:59 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · The other side of the mountain


RustyBug wrote:
There are settings in Photoshop that provide instructions for what it is to do with the out of gamut areas upon conversion.

It's been a long time since I've researched the different aspects of the settings, but iirc (crude memory on the matter), there is a setting that will try to make an equivalent conversion to the actual value, in which case you can get some clipping, but will make more "accurate" conversions within the sRGB space, when it can.

The other way is to have it do a "relative" scale adjustment (very crudely think the diff @ logarithmic vs. linear) that
...Show more

Thanks Kent, most of all for believing me. I was able to pull it down enough to show and its at landscape now.

I am short of time now, but when I get home I am going to post this at Post Processing with a link to the raw. It is simply amazing to me. aRGB or prophoto both show lots of room to the right, I mean maybe 25 or more. But as soon as I convert to sRGB it blows. It does not even look light, just loses all the tonality in that area.

Does the aRGB I posted above show for you? It does for me on Chrome and a wide gamut monitor. I would love to ditch sRGB. The only place I use if is for web posting.


Also thanks for pointing the problem in the first place, and Karen for her help. I would have posted one of those. In the process of working this image, I decided to go with the honest version without the alpenglow



Edited on Sep 26, 2015 at 09:18 PM · View previous versions



Sep 26, 2015 at 09:14 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · The other side of the mountain


Ben, you're welcome ... you shoot as straight as they come, so why wouldn't I believe you.

Took a stab at artistic liberties to try and emulate the light coming in from the left, reaching some areas strongly, yet others only softly or not at all as the (real & imagined) terrain affords. Could use some work to dial in the balance @ S&P to taste, but hopefully you get the gist.

Not a lot of diff between the two, but the second one I pulled back a touch in the brighter areas to try and "mood match" a bit better. The hardest part was resisting the temptation to put mucho drama into that sky ... it gives it a very different vibe, but I didn't want to go too far with it (although, it does have an appeal).














Sep 26, 2015 at 09:34 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · The other side of the mountain


Thanks Kent, two very nice renderings. I am seeing a bit of that blown gamma but there is not much you can do especially when working with a jpg.

It occurred to me that I probably have earlier shots with less intensity that may be easier to process.

That sky did not need any enhancement, just keep it from blowing and add a small amount of sat and it was good to go.

This is before sunrise, the alpineglow version shows the first rays. So there really aren't any shadows, just soft light and the light was very warm as it was just as pink behind me as in front.

We had another sunrise like it this morning, but I did not go out.

Good job including the alpinglow.



Sep 27, 2015 at 09:54 AM
RustyBug
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · The other side of the mountain


Thanks Ben, it was a joy to work on this one a bit. But, you did all the heavy lifting @ getting the capture (only vicarious on this end).


Sep 27, 2015 at 10:15 AM
ben egbert
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · The other side of the mountain


Here are a couple more. I lingered after the show. It is typical to get cloud color then light on the mountains and then direct light on the foreground but almost never all at once. Sometimes you get alpenglow and cloud color.

Before the sun hits the land, the exposure is fairly easy and maybe all you need is 1-2 stops to recover. One the sun hits you get shadows until later when it may illuminate everything. But of course by then it is not as interesting.

These shots show show how fast the cloud color dies, it is gone in a couple minutes. Then you have 10- 20 minutes as the light descends the mountain.

These shots are what you typically bring home when there was no cloud color show.





Alpineglow







Full sun on the main slope




Sep 27, 2015 at 01:16 PM
georgetd
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · The other side of the mountain


ben egbert wrote:
This is a case of posterization. The lightest part of the red channel is 246 before conversion, but 255 after.

Here is the same file saved in aRGB, not sure your browser will show aRGB, but the blown reds are fixed.

I am thinking of converting in sRGB as I open it to see if that solves the issue for web. My printer will print it fine.


I'm growing to be rather fond of this image. It's not quite finished yet, but this one is looking pretty good, and it'll be worth the effort. I just got back from a work trip, so I haven't had time to really look at it carefully yet though.



Sep 27, 2015 at 08:33 PM
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