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Archive 2015 · Taking the math out of packages

  
 
carriedaway
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Taking the math out of packages


Hey everyone,
I thought that I had pretty straight forward packages, but at every consultation I still find the bride and groom adding up the different options and seeing if it's worth moving up.

I want them to just be able to look at each package, see the value of moving up (or deciding that a lower package is for them) and not have to pull out their phone and start adding up things.

Does that make sense? Or is that just a part of packages?



Sep 23, 2015 at 07:33 PM
MattGruber
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Taking the math out of packages


Without seeing your packages it's hard to say for sure. What I do personally, is make it as simple for them as possible. The only thing different between my packages is no album, smaller album, larger album. So when I'm going over the different packages with them, I say "the only difference between this package and this package is this one includes the album. The only thing different with the next package is the album is larger." I would imagine you could do something similar even if it's for hours, second shooters, etc. just point out to them what they include and highlight the benefits.


Sep 23, 2015 at 07:55 PM
rondphoto
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Taking the math out of packages


You need to read the wedding photography package pricing e book by Lawrence Chan. He'll show you how to keep clients from dissecting the pricing


Sep 23, 2015 at 09:38 PM
glort
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Taking the math out of packages


MattGruber wrote:
What I do personally, is make it as simple for them as possible.


Me too!
That's why I don't have ANY " Packages".

There is nothing to compare, confuse, get shopped on, and, most importantly, I am NOT trying to sell them something I don't yet have to sell, Pictures.

I sit down ( yes, face to face, I am a dinosaur after all) with the clients and go over what they want and don't want. Wall portrait? Yes, fine. No wall print, OK, fine, This album, no problems, start at grooms home, finish with night shots in the city, great. Start at the restaurant and fininsh at the restaurant 2 hours later, not a problem.

I can accommodate every request and tailor the coverage to EXACTLY what they want. With packages there is always something they don't really want and something missing they do. I give them all the options and quote Them on what they want, nothing they don't, nothing the miss out on.

I charge for a basic coverage upfront then let them pick and choose what they want after the day when they can see what there is to choose from and how many, what size etc they want then. That way I can build plenty of back end into the deal because I actually have something to sell them they want, not just an idea.

I would have even more of a hard time doing packages now than what most people would have getting their heads round how I don't have them. :0)



Sep 23, 2015 at 10:48 PM
MattGruber
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Taking the math out of packages




glort wrote:
Me too!
That's why I don't have ANY " Packages".

There is nothing to compare, confuse, get shopped on, and, most importantly, I am NOT trying to sell them something I don't yet have to sell, Pictures.

I sit down ( yes, face to face, I am a dinosaur after all) with the clients and go over what they want and don't want. Wall portrait? Yes, fine. No wall print, OK, fine, This album, no problems, start at grooms home, finish with night shots in the city, great. Start at the restaurant and fininsh at the restaurant 2 hours later, not a
...Show more

I'm with you on not selling crap they don't want. I offer all day coverage no matter which package. Literally the only difference is if they want an album and how large of an album they want. Simple. But everyone ha their own little things that work for them. This works for me.



Sep 23, 2015 at 11:47 PM
evertdoorn
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Taking the math out of packages


you could easily work with packages and adjust them if needed. That's why I want to talk to the client first before I give them all the price info.

Just sending them a price sheets makes things confusing, but if I send them the price sheet and tell them that we could do this and this with package x so it exactly matches their wishes we spoke about on the phone, it makes sense.



Sep 24, 2015 at 02:44 AM
glort
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Taking the math out of packages


evertdoorn wrote:
you could easily work with packages and adjust them if needed.


That's pretty much my exact thought behind NOT doing the packages.
Why have them if you are forever going to be modifying and changing them? That's what I did when I did use packages many, many years ago and it seemed pointless. If I am going to change something for every client, may as well just make the packages up individually.

It also allows me to cover things like long travel, long hours, more than usual locations etc rather than showing them as extras on the package. It's easier for ME to just lump these all in as I go and give the clients an easy to understand all up price.

By the same token, if the wedding is just round the corner and all quick and local, I may wish to sweeten the deal. Again if I am going to say well I'll take this much off the package price for this but add on for that, May as well not bother with the set prices in the first place.

The thing I really like about doing the real sale after the wedding is that my returns can be commensurate with results. With a package they will probably buy the cheapest they thing they think they can get away with. You do an awesome job and they are not going to spend any more. When You have the pictures after the day, you have something that is tangible and real and is full of emotional attachment.

When you have that, you don't have to sell a thing.
They buy like crazy.


I remember one rather gruff guy came in once with his Fiancée. They had been quoted $4K for wedding pics. He was going on how he wasn't going to pay that for a few pictures in an album, people must be mad..... etc. He was happy to go with me because my base coverage was still too much but better than a lot of others they had seen. I was telling him they WOULD spend more and he was telling me, No, they wouldn't.

They come in after the honeymoon and we do the preview of the pictures, just showing them what was there before they start choosing. The guy stands up, Fishes in his pocket and drops his keys on the desk. The Mrs and I look and she says what did you do that for? He says well I may as well hand them over now as later because I can see he's going to own my ute time we are finished.

Ironically it was HIM going through the pics arguing with her that there was no way they could leave this one or that out of the album when she was trying to cut down.
At the end he said I know I spend t a LOT more than I ever thought I would but HE couldn't knock them back. He said you told us you were going to take good pictures, you told us we would spend more money, we don't have to but you would be an idiot not to have those memories.

I always remember that guy as one of my biggest turnarounds and the classic case of what having the ability to build some back end into the coverage's can do.
I have been doing it this way so long now that changing to something else would be near impossible especially when I believe I'm doing what's best already.

The best system for anyone is the one they are confident and believe in and can therefore sell to their clients with complete faith.



Sep 24, 2015 at 04:47 AM
nolaguy
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Taking the math out of packages


glort wrote:
That's pretty much my exact thought behind NOT doing the packages.
Why have them if you are forever going to be modifying and changing them? That's what I did when I did use packages many, many years ago and it seemed pointless. If I am going to change something for every client, may as well just make the packages up individually.

It also allows me to cover things like long travel, long hours, more than usual locations etc rather than showing them as extras on the package. It's easier for ME to just lump these all in as I go
...Show more


^ ****ing this.

One of the great challenges of this industry is the varying degrees of emotional value in the product. And the simple truth is, it does vary. May not be the photographer's fault or flaw. Could be stale or pissy subjects. Could be acts of God.

Regardless, there is a certain elegance and honor to a business model that monetarily capitalizes on exceptional results and yet has enough integral depth and awareness of reality to absorb the unavoidable lesser ones.

My quest to find meaningful flaws in Glort's logic and wisdom continues.



Sep 24, 2015 at 05:15 AM
IrishDino
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Taking the math out of packages


Our "packages" are just coverage options. Products and adds ons are extra. It keeps it easy for me and for the client. Plus we appear to be "better value" than our competition from the outset.

But the thing I'm experiencing now is that too many people are struggling to figure out how much coverage they need. I'm thinking about simply doing a 6h rate and a "up to 12h" rate, but I don't want to alienate the clients who legitimately only need 9h.



Sep 24, 2015 at 05:37 AM
glort
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Taking the math out of packages


ZachOly wrote:
But the thing I'm experiencing now is that too many people are struggling to figure out how much coverage they need.


When I started my no package coverage, shooters pricelists were all so many pictures of this size and so many pics of that size in an album with this as an upgrade and so many hours for $x etc.
Everything was sold on numbers.

People would come in and say we are doing this for our wedding and having so many bridesmaids and grooms men, what package do we need? They had no clue if they would want 3, 6 9 or 54 8x10's in the album or how many 6x4's, 5x9's etc. It was meaningless to them and they never really understood what the hell that was in real terms. After all, most couples have only been married 3-4 times now and it's hard to remember these things!

They didn't know what they wanted and I couldn't tell them. Thing was, it was all how much do you want to spend in reality. and they sure didn't know that either.
20 Odd years later, I STILL can't tell them what they will want or be happy with but it doesn't matter. They choose when they see the pics not after so they can decide how many of what size they want in any combination.

I don't think this is a case of " Too many people NOW...." I think it's a case of too many people always did! :0)

Shooters in the old days usually had 4-5 packages. The best ( worst) one I ever saw ( and still have somewhere) is a pricelist from a shooter with 27 ( yes, 27!!) packages. Then there was the almost as long options list.

The guy was near me at a bridal fair I did and quite a nice fella. He came and gave me a price list and said if ever I was booked up would I consider mentioning him to the clients I couldn't help. He was chatting away and I said to him, " Mate, I'm a photographer and -I- can't figure out this price list, how in the hell do you expect clients to?" To him it was covering everyone's needs, to me, it was very nice of him to help my business by making it so confusing for clients to book him :0)


I'm thinking about simply doing a 6h rate and a "up to 12h" rate, but I don't want to alienate the clients who legitimately only need 9h.

Yep, that's the exact same sort of problem I found.
No one package fits all and the more you add in the more confusing they get for the clients.
I think I was too stupid to figure it out so I just found it easier to avoid it all together!



Sep 24, 2015 at 06:56 AM
carriedaway
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Taking the math out of packages


I tried to do 'custom quotes' for about 2 seconds. Every reply was 'well can you just tell me how much you think it would be?' via email. But that was my first year of business, so I might be able to make it work now. Here are the packages that I've been working with for about the last year...

Option one:
8 Hours Coverage
Small album 40 images

Option two:
10 Hours Coverage
Medium Album 60 images
Digital Images from wedding day

Option three:
12 Hours Coverage
Large Album 100 images
Digital Images from wedding & engagement
Sign In book from engagement images

I wanted my packages to include lots of hours so that they would get enough hours so they didn't feel like they needed to add on hours, but they always ask if they can take out hours, because they feel they don't need that many. So I plan on changing them to 6,8, and 10 hours. I also wanted them to have tangible products in every package, not just digital. I would be interested in your thoughts! I also used to do an album credit, but that just confused people later on when ordering, so I changed to # of images, and is working out much better.



Sep 24, 2015 at 07:43 AM
hendrikm
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Taking the math out of packages


carriedaway wrote:
I thought that I had pretty straight forward packages, but at every consultation I still find the bride and groom adding up the different options and seeing if it's worth moving up.



You need to tell them what they are saving...
For this, you need a la carte prices, too. But then you can promote a package with the incentive of a saving.
Put the saving direct next to the price of the package - "With the SILVER PACKAGE you get 10 additional pages and you save 300$"

No need for the client to use a calculator now...




Sep 24, 2015 at 07:53 AM
ricardovaste
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Taking the math out of packages


This is a difficult one because it's not as easy as Packages vs Bespoke. Both can work very, very well, but if you take one piece of advice without having 20 other things in place, neither are going to work great.

Simplification is a useful thing to take from it and if there is one thing any single person can do it is likely simplify. But it's also useful to understand the details of how and what to simplify, rather than just stripping it down to nothing.

If you're sending out a reply via email with a custom made/bespoke offering, then you might as well just take it out to the woods and put a bullet in it. That's really a very poor way of handling things. Which is why the whole A vs B argument is pretty fruitless, you need to gain an understanding of the entire Sales process.



Sep 24, 2015 at 08:15 AM
Jason Ferber
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Taking the math out of packages


ricardovaste wrote:
This is a difficult one because it's not as easy as Packages vs Bespoke. Both can work very, very well, but if you take one piece of advice without having 20 other things in place, neither are going to work great.

Simplification is a useful thing to take from it and if there is one thing any single person can do it is likely simplify. But it's also useful to understand the details of how and what to simplify, rather than just stripping it down to nothing.

If you're sending out a reply via email with a custom made/bespoke offering, then you
...Show more

This. You hit the nail on the head here, and this is what I struggle with the most! I'm currently rethinking, revamping, and just plain trying to figure out what to do with pricing in general; but am so lost and confused lol! I have read a TON of threads about packages vs no packages, hourly vs full day only, send a price list vs don't mention price unless they're sitting in front of you, and the only thing I know for certain right now is that everybody has a different opinion about what works.

I've also noticed that people's opinions change over the years too. Which definitely doesn't help me try and figure things out.

I know this did not really contribute to the thread at all lol, but it felt great to vent about my confusion. Thanks for listening!




Sep 24, 2015 at 09:49 AM
ricardovaste
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Taking the math out of packages


Jason, sent you a PM.


Sep 24, 2015 at 10:11 AM
Flugelbinder
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Taking the math out of packages


Jason Ferber wrote:
This. You hit the nail on the head here, and this is what I struggle with the most! I'm currently rethinking, revamping, and just plain trying to figure out what to do with pricing in general; but am so lost and confused lol! I have read a TON of threads about packages vs no packages, hourly vs full day only, send a price list vs don't mention price unless they're sitting in front of you, and the only thing I know for certain right now is that everybody has a different opinion about what works.

I've also noticed that people's
...Show more

I hear you!
I'm having the same doubts, except I'm just starting out...
The advice most seasoned photographers give is do not underprice. Yes, couldn't agree more. But, what if one overprices oneself? What if people don't think one is worth paying what one's asking? What if...



Sep 24, 2015 at 10:22 AM
Jason Ferber
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Taking the math out of packages


Flugelbinder wrote:
The advice most seasoned photographers give is do not underprice. Yes, couldn't agree more. But, what if one overprices oneself? What if people don't think one is worth paying what one's asking? What if...


Nice to meet a fellow Ontarian with the same struggles! This is one I still battle with too lol. I feel you.



Sep 24, 2015 at 11:11 AM
skg photos
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Taking the math out of packages


The math is necesarry, it makes it logical to drive them to your middle package.

As previously stated in another persons comment, an a la carte
price list for all the components in your packags is necesarry for this.

Each item, including hours and albums, should cost considerably more than if they get them in the package.

Don't include high res files in the lowest package, maybe web size files only if you must- charge a lot for high res files a la carte, and they almost always land right where you want them without a calculator. Say $1000 or $2000- make the a la carte math really easy to do in their head. But let them do it.
It will let them feel they are sure about getting the 'best value' by chosing your middle or top package.

Edited on Sep 24, 2015 at 10:49 PM · View previous versions



Sep 24, 2015 at 11:50 AM
carriedaway
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Taking the math out of packages


This is pretty much exactly what I'm doing. The a la cart page is when they get out their calculator to add everything up to see how much they save if they go with the top package. I guess I can tell them right out what they're saving, which I don't do right now. Thanks for the replies, I love seeing how everyone else does things.


Sep 24, 2015 at 12:22 PM
nolaguy
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Taking the math out of packages


Flugelbinder wrote:
I hear you!
I'm having the same doubts, except I'm just starting out...
The advice most seasoned photographers give is do not underprice. Yes, couldn't agree more. But, what if one overprices oneself? What if people don't think one is worth paying what one's asking? What if...


Paul, I'd like you to meet Marketing. Marketing, this is Paul. You two have fun.





Sep 25, 2015 at 06:47 PM
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