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Archive 2015 · Printing From Film - Dumb Question Maybe

  
 
DougVaughn
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Printing From Film - Dumb Question Maybe


In the past 6 months, I've started shooting film (again) with some of my old cameras. Back in the old days, I used to have enlargements made from 35mm film with very good results. I'd like to have a few prints made but am afraid the quality won't be there because of the graininess the scans come back with, even from the highest quality scanning services.

I'm fairly sure all the large prints weren't made from scans 20 years ago, but everywhere I look online for services to print from film, they mention scanning. Is there anyone (lab) who prints directly without the interim step of scanning?

The various scans I have look fine for web sharing, and would probably even look OK in an 8x10 print, but I can't imagine they would look good at 20x20 or 20x30, especially the 35mm ones. The ones on 120 film have a better chance I guess.

Thanks for input!



Sep 19, 2015 at 02:01 PM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Printing From Film - Dumb Question Maybe


Yes, there ARE still custom labs that do optical enlargements the old fashioned way, but they are getting harder to find. You probably have to go to New York, L.A. or S.F. to find that kind of service. That being said, I still think the best looking prints come from truly great scans by someone who is a master at scanning. I have prints from 35mm film on the walls in my studio that are five feet tall and look great. Drum scanned at 8000 dpi.

A lot depends on the type of film you're shooting. The best results for large prints from 35mm usually come from T-Max100 for black and white and from Velvia slide film for color. Color neg films, while being very very forgiving in exposure and having tons of latitude, generally aren't as sharp as slide film or black and white and tend to go grainy with scans, especially cheap scans. My guess is that whoever your "highest quality scanning" service probably wasn't.



Sep 19, 2015 at 02:51 PM
John Caldwell
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Printing From Film - Dumb Question Maybe


Doug, Are you suggesting scanning adds noise or somehow accentuates the film grain? I believe you can deal with grain that's evident in a good quality scan much as you would deal with digital noise.

John Caldwell



Sep 19, 2015 at 05:35 PM
Tim Knutson
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Printing From Film - Dumb Question Maybe


Doug, I have come to my own personal conclusion, that if your going to mess with film, at least use a 4x5. You just have so much more real estate to work with.


Sep 19, 2015 at 05:57 PM
Jeffrey
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Printing From Film - Dumb Question Maybe


Tim Knutson wrote:
Doug, I have come to my own personal conclusion, that if your going to mess with film, at least use a 4x5. You just have so much more real estate to work with.


I would agree, but MF is still a good choice. And, If you are getting unacceptable graininess from your scans, they are not being done correctly.



Sep 20, 2015 at 01:30 AM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Printing From Film - Dumb Question Maybe


I think that film of any size is still a good and viable choice if that film provides the look you're looking for. I have no problem using anything from 35mm to 4x5 but these days when I'm shooting film it's most apt to be black and white in a Mamiya 7. When you take what are arguably the best medium format film lenses ever made, expose a finely detailed film like T-Max100 or Velvia and drum scan at 4000-8000 ppi, the results are hard to beat. Unfortunately too many digital oriented photographers are completely missing the point when they shoot film and complain about too much grain. Film is supposed to have grain and there wouldn't be an image without it. Even Adams' 30x40 and 40x50 prints from 8x10 have noticeably grain when viewed up close, but so what. Many of the great photographs of all time were shot on grainy, barely in focus 35mm, but that doesn't make them any less great. I mean, check out Frank, Cartier-Bresson, Ralph Gibson, Elliot Erwitt, Lartigue, Robert Capa, among many others. Today's films are much finer grained and sharper than the films that many of these I've listed above and that makes it possible to use smaller film sizes with even better results. But those results are going to be limited either by the skill of a traditional analog projected darkroom printer or by the skill of a master scanner who understands how to get as much as possible out of a piece of film when digitizing it.


Sep 20, 2015 at 02:58 AM
Tim Knutson
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Printing From Film - Dumb Question Maybe


Peter, when everyone starting fire selling their film stuff, I got the film bug. I went on a binge and got to play with most of the normal formats. But, I never found a Mamiya 7 for the price that I was willing to pay. Perhaps that does speak to their quality.

I have a couple of RB negatives that came out pretty nice, but in the end, decided that my 4x5 was easier to lug around.

I had an Eos 3 that I really liked, but it just stopped making sense for me. The film vs digital thing, I'm sure you've heard that story.



Sep 20, 2015 at 12:57 PM
Dustin Gent
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Printing From Film - Dumb Question Maybe


west coast imaging does great scanning


Sep 20, 2015 at 01:39 PM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Printing From Film - Dumb Question Maybe


Tim - Yes, I completely understand how film has lost favor particularly in commercial work, but there are certain types of images where it's still just subjectively better. I still have all my RZ stuff and the Mamiya 7 with four lenses, but I also have a brand new 5DS R as well, and that's where I go to first. I still shoot film for personal projects but very very seldom for any commercial work. No one wants to pay for film and processing or scanning anymore and they certainly don't want to wait a few days to see their images. That's the world we're living in. My next film experiment is going to be buying a few 120 rolls of Adox CMS II, which is, from what I hear, similar to the long discontinued Technical Pan from Kodak - in terms of grain, sharpness, acutance and overall image quality. That should push the limits of those M7 lenses, but I'm going to have to dig out my developing tanks and soup it myself as my preferred black and white lab here in L.A. won't use special developers any longer.

Dustin - West Coast Imaging uses a Heidleberg Tango drum scanner - a very good scanner, but also one that is hamstrung by a 10 micron minimum aperture, which means that in one direction you get an effective 2540 ppi resolution and only by using smaller steps in the stepper motor does it make finer increments for higher resolution. So you get this higher res in one direction only. You can see the affect by visiting Mountain Light Gallery in Bishop. West Coast did the scans for Galen Rowell's prints, and you can clearly see stair stepping on the 32x48 inch Lightjets displayed there.

So while they are absolutely correct in their statement that it takes an artist to make great scans, and they do make great scans, they're also overstating the actual resolved resolution by using the manufacturer's advertising claim and selling that as reality. This is important to know if you're shooting T-Max100 or Adox CMS with very sharp lenses and are expecting to get the most out of your scan. The only two scanners I know that actually resolve closer to their claimed resolution are the ICG and the Howtek/Aztek both of which use 3 micron apertures for 8000 ppi and a real rez of around 7000+. Having had scans done on Heidleberg, Crossfields, ICG's and done thousands of my own on Howteks, I can tell you from personal experience that you can actually see the difference in scans of film that actually have information beyond the real resolution limits of that scanner. This is all stuff that I had no inkling about when I bought my first drum scanner seventeen years ago and my second one fourteen years ago. I only learned later on and was certainly happy that I had stumbled onto a great product without knowing what made it great at the time. Sometimes you get lucky.



Sep 20, 2015 at 03:32 PM
DougVaughn
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Printing From Film - Dumb Question Maybe


Thanks to all for the responses. Peter, I probably should have said "high quality" rather than "highest quality" as I'm certainly not experienced enough to know what the "highest" is. I've tried a few at this point and have been most happy with Indie Film Labs in Montgomery, AL, but something is still lacking.

I do expect some grain, but it seems the grain overpowers the sharpness to the point a 6x6 frame shot on my Rollei 2.8E doesn't look as good as the same scene on digital. I might be hoping for too much.

Regarding Velvia film, do you recommend the ISO 50 or 100? I have used one roll of TMAX 100 but was mostly using Ilford Delta 100 and 400. Also Porta 160 and Ektar 100.



Sep 21, 2015 at 12:58 PM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Printing From Film - Dumb Question Maybe


Doug - It's very possible that the scans you're getting are at the same time showing you too much grain and not enough detail - depending on exactly where the scanner was focused. It's a weird seemingly impossible phenomenon that I've seen on a few occasions. Most CCD scanners have a lot of depth of field, but if the plane of optimal focus is too high or too low this can happen. Drum scanners, on the other hand, have extremely thin depth of focus and changing the plane of focus even a couple tenths of a millimeter makes a big difference.

I prefer Velvia 50 over the 100. I don't even know how to explain why I prefer it. There's a different look with the 50 feeling more robust, possibly more saturated and very slightly sharper.



Sep 21, 2015 at 03:41 PM
DougVaughn
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Printing From Film - Dumb Question Maybe


Thought it might be helpful to show some of what I'm seeing, and it could be that my expectations are simply too high. Here are some from the Grand Canyon. Conditions weren't great as it was hazy for most of my trip, but the images came back way more flat than what I was seeing with my eyes.

The first is the whole scene without doing anything but fitting to a web size. The second and third are 100% crops first showing that the image seems sharp enough in the closest rocks and next showing how much grain is in the less sharp areas. Finally is a quick edit to bring out some contrast and make it somewhat closer to my original vision.

Edit... Should note Ilford Delta 100 film.





















Edited on Sep 22, 2015 at 08:30 PM · View previous versions



Sep 22, 2015 at 08:21 PM
DougVaughn
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Printing From Film - Dumb Question Maybe


Here's a second shot not far from the first. Same idea. Whole scene, 100% crops, and an edit (sure some can do much better) to bring the image out. Once I make the edits, the grain is accentuated even more and would certainly be prominent in a large print.






















Sep 22, 2015 at 08:24 PM
DougVaughn
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Printing From Film - Dumb Question Maybe


Not to go too crazy on the thread, but here's one showing how sharp this camera (Rolleiflex 2.8E) can be. I wasn't thrilled with the way the color came out using Ektar 100, but the sharpness is there. Straight from the scanning service (Indie Film Labs) without edits, color correction, or sharpening.

I will have to do more shooting until I make an image worthy of a drum scan, then try that. I'm open to recommendations for a good drum scanning service.













Sep 22, 2015 at 08:34 PM





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