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Archive 2015 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

Luvwine
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

I have been experimenting with comparing a couple of lenses (New Zeiss Batis 25 and Leica R 28 E55) and I posted some examples on the Sony forum as I have been using a Sony A7r2. I like the camera and both lenses, but have noticed on some images a significant color signature difference tho not on other images. I am puzzled about this and at the risk of exposing my profound ignorance, I thought I would post a few examples and see if anyone can tell me what the deal is.

Here are two pics from today off the back porch. First is the Zeiss and then the Leica. Both are straight out of the camera.


	http://m7.i.pbase.com/o9/91/505291/1/161221967.wuKxhFkU.ZeissbackporchSOC.jpg


	http://m8.i.pbase.com/o9/91/505291/1/161221968.YblTytRg.LEICAbackSOC.jpg

Then, I applied some default editing in lightroom--auto or daylight color temp, auto tone, reduce the over exposure that I find it usually does, and added an identical amount of clarity and vibrance and here is what I got, again Zeiss then Leica:


	http://m9.i.pbase.com/o9/91/505291/1/161221969.KgL0gK0P.ZeissbackDEFAULT.jpg


	http://m0.i.pbase.com/o9/91/505291/1/161221970.MtwHOlli.LEICAbacDEFAULT.jpg

It seems to me the editing made the images much closer than they were. SOC the Zeiss color was better, to me, but after a quick edit with no particular attention, the differences were much less.

Next, here is an image from a waterfall the other day. Again, first SOC Zeiss first:


	http://m4.i.pbase.com/o9/91/505291/1/161213374.2G68Oxxq.ZeissBatis25SOCF8.jpg


	http://m3.i.pbase.com/o9/91/505291/1/161213373.oXSIhA88.LeicaR28E55SOCF8.jpg

Then with identical edits, Zeiss then Leica:


	http://m3.i.pbase.com/o9/91/505291/1/161213603.ZnM1OCs6.ZeissBatis25F8DEFAULT.jpg


	http://i.pbase.com/o9/91/505291/1/161222245.UwlrllaI.waterfalldefaultWBcorrected.jpg

Hmmm, very different result this time. I like the Leica color on the waterfall set both SOC and after edits, tho I cannot swear it is more accurate. What puzzles me is that despite default edits in both occasions, the first set of pics is much closer in color in the end result compared to the second set.

Finally, again as part of my lens test, I took a quick portrait of my sick but tolerant wife. Both of these are SOC again Zeiss first:


	http://m1.i.pbase.com/o9/91/505291/1/161221971.iglaAE4Y.Zeiss25portraitSOC.jpg


	http://m2.i.pbase.com/o9/91/505291/1/161221972.AJXUxaus.Leica28portraitSOC.jpg

It seems to me in the portrait shot, the colors straight out of the camera are fairly close, so I won't bother with a processed pair.

What is going on here? Why are some pictures so different straight out of the camera but become close after identical processing while others retain larger differences after identical processing?

Both seem to me to be very fine lenses, by the way. Thanks much for any thoughts!

Edited on Sep 06, 2015 at 06:35 PM · View previous versions

Sep 06, 2015 at 05:33 PM

jcolwell
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

Well, the first two sequences of photos have a very pronounced green content, while the last two images are very orange, with what appears to be a lower colour temperature background illuminated by tungsten bulbs, and a higher colour temperature foreground, illuminated by sunlight coming in from outside.

In general, lens 'colour signatures' are most pronounced in specific parts of the light spectrum. For example, try comparing the Zeiss and Leica lenses between scenes that have strong blue content and strong red content (not orange).

IME, Zeiss provides strong colour, with maybe a slight emphasis on blues. Leica provides strong colour, especially for reds. Both Zeiss and Leica have relatively strong colours. Throw in some Pentax, Olympus, and Mamiya 645 glass, and you'll see some more obvious differences.

Edited on Sep 06, 2015 at 05:52 PM · View previous versions

Sep 06, 2015 at 05:51 PM

Jman13
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

Do all the pairs have identical white balance?

Sep 06, 2015 at 05:51 PM

Two23
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

Historically, German glass has been cooler than Japanese glass. A big part of that is trace chemicals in the raw material the glass is made from.

Kent in SD

Sep 06, 2015 at 06:09 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

"Auto" WB for all of these? There will be differences but to see that you need to first use the same WB and not "Auto" WB I think.

Sep 06, 2015 at 06:15 PM

Luvwine
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

A very good question. I just checked and the first scene (mountains) had exactly the same WB. The portraits were off by 50 points in white balance. The waterfall was indeed "auto" white balance and that resulted in a 150 point difference (5350 versus 5500). Changing the white balance does lessen the difference, but there is still a significant difference. All the "tint" controls are the same.

Sorry not to have seen that this variable was not taken care of. I am happy to repost the images with identical WB settings, but I think the premise of the question is not affected and appreciate the help.

Historically, I have taken pains to ensure that what I see on the screen matches as closely as I can manage to the output of the printer. However, I have not done much of anything with respect to color checking whether what I see on the screen matches what I see in real life. I have a color checker passport and I suppose I could use that or a white card when I shoot, but have not done this and instead I have edited to what looks good to me. This is probably a flawed approach, but I have not been tasked with photo reproduction. I usually set white balance by either auto or, if that does not look right, by selecting for the light conditions I know existed (tungsten, shade, etc.) or just manually played with the sliders until it looks right or looks good. Testing the lenses and seeing substantial differences in color for the same scene SOC, made me start to think about color and, particularly, how each lens manufacturer affects color. I have read that Tamron has a yellow cast, for example or the voigtlander has a different color signature that Zeiss, but I have not really understood until now how significant that factor can be.

Thanks for putting up with my ignorance....

Edited on Sep 06, 2015 at 06:40 PM · View previous versions

Sep 06, 2015 at 06:28 PM

johnctharp
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

'How do lenses affect color?'

A: the light goes *through* the lens, and everything that light goes through affects color

Sep 06, 2015 at 06:35 PM

Luvwine
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

Okay, I just substituted the second (Leica) waterfall shot so that the white balance is the same as the Zeiss on both sets of edited pictures.

Sep 06, 2015 at 06:36 PM

JonPB
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

Color can be like a tempestuous lover: nothing better when all goes well, nothing worse--and for seemingly no reason--when things go awry. The nice thing about camera gear, though, is once all variables are understood the results become repeatable.

I don't believe there is such a thing as a "clear" lens, one that treats all wavelengths the same way. Designing a lens requires balancing color, both in the glass and the coatings. All will emphasize certain parts of the spectrum, for better or for worse. Also, I suspect that most major photo editing programs make behind-the-scenes adjustments to color based on the "color" represented in digital form as well as on the camera and lens reported in the metadata. Which is to say, isolating the causes is nearly impossible. Still, the same camera/lens/processing will produce the same results, at least in my experience, with the caveat that using any "auto" feature will throw predictability out the window.

The biggest hurdle I've overcome with color editing is in managing different hue shifts depending on brightness. That is, shadows, midtones, and highlights all need to be adjusted independently in order to match different cameras. I suspect the same would be true for lenses as well (due to varying linearity and hue of veiling glare), although I haven't tried that.

I also think that editing pictures "to taste" is the way to go, rather than striving for a perfect reproduction. Philosophically, I suggest that artistic interpretation in post processing can lead to a better sense in the viewer of seeing the same scene than even a technically perfect reproduction. Even if that's not the case for your own approach, having the skills to artistically interpret color strikes me as a subset of the skills required to competently reproduce color, so learning how to see, think about, and edit color is a good thing either way.

At any rate: tests like this show that photography certainly requires more than just pushing a button in order to generate the desired image. Seeing color like this is like seeing "sharpness" or chromatic aberration for the first time, and tends to lead to mild insanity for a period before understanding and acceptance. Welcome to the next step of your photographic journey, if you care to wander down that path. :-)

Nice back yard, by the way.

Cheers,
Jon

Edit: no substantive comments on the images themselves because I'm away from my computer for the weekend. if you'd like to share the raw files, though, I'd be curious to play with the images and see if I couldn't make them more similar with a tone and hue preset sometime this week. That'd allow me to name and discuss the differences, which is particularly appealing as I consider looking to pick up one of those Elmarit 28's and as I mostly work with Leica R lenses...and am trying to figure out color for myself, too.

Sep 06, 2015 at 07:08 PM

DougVaughn
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

I can't add much to the color discussion since I have a form of colorblindness where I don't see colors the same as everyone else. My biggest challenge in photography.

Off topic, but I'd love to know where that waterfall is. If you're in Atlanta, maybe it's also driving distance for me. Thanks.

Sep 06, 2015 at 07:28 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

There is a waterfall in NC right outside of Highlands that I always used to go to called Dry Falls, which this waterfall looks like.

Sep 06, 2015 at 07:33 PM

Luvwine
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

Jon, thank you for the thoughtful reply. When I have an image I want to take seriously, I do spend more time editing than just pushing the automatic button. My goal for these images was not art, but just trying out a new lens for the weekend to see whether I like it enough to keep it. To that end, I tried it out against the closest focal length I had to it, which is the Leica. It was just in noticing the different colors that got me thinking. I. Know different sensors make a huge difference, e.g., Fuji versus Canon versus Nikon are all quite different. I also knew there were some differences in different lens manufacturers, but had not seen the topic discussed much so I thought I would ask and see what I can learn.

I am happy to share the raw images, should they be educational for you as your insights would be most welcome. The R 28, is my only Leica R. I have several M lenses, but try to stick with those that work with Sony as I have not modded any of my cameras.

The new lenses for Sony seem very good indeed, although I am not sure they are better than a lot of legacy glass. They certainly offer convenience and the computer algorithms "fix" a lot of their issues automatically, but I wonder about issues of durability and how good some of the glass really is. The Batis 85, for example, is doubtless sharp as anything, but it has significant distortion. Yet another poster curated it was better than the Leica 90/2 AA. Maybe, but I am skeptical as the MTF for the Leica is better and it has almost no distortion. It is so tempting to get caught up in the hype surrounding the latest and greatest.

Edited on Sep 06, 2015 at 08:25 PM · View previous versions

Sep 06, 2015 at 07:44 PM

Luvwine
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

Tariq Gibran wrote:
There is a waterfall in NC right outside of Highlands that I always used to go to called Dry Falls, which this waterfall looks like.

There is a really good reason it looks like Dry Falls. That is because it is! 😜

Doug, i live in Atlanta, but we have a place not far from Highlands. The waterfall in question is about a two hour drive from Atlanta. There are many others in the area.

Sep 06, 2015 at 07:45 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

Luvwine wrote:
There is a really good reason it looks like Dry Fallls. That is because it is! 😜

Yeah, I thought so...

A few of us (ok, me

) were a bit critical about the distortion with the Batis 85 before it's release and the way Zeiss published the official distortion numbers after digital correction is applied for this lens. Zeiss state: "Measured on Sony a7R, camera correction “on". Maybe that's just how Tamron (the designer of the lens) provided the info to Zeiss...ouch!

Sep 06, 2015 at 07:53 PM

Luvwine
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

Dry falls is fun in the winter too, Doug (and Tariq). And, just so folks know it fits with the "Alt" theme, it is a Leica WATE on A7r.


	http://m9.i.pbase.com/o9/91/505291/1/154198379.4EPkeGD2.untitled1155.jpg

Sep 06, 2015 at 07:57 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

Nice. Can't say that I have been there with that much ice. I grew up about 60 miles down the mountain in SC.

Sep 06, 2015 at 08:08 PM

JohnJ
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

Luvwine, when you say the images are SOC are they jpegs or RAW files?

If RAW I wonder if the Sony applies it's various lens corrections to the RAW file as well as the jpegs. I'm just wondering if you are comparing apples with apples in that the Sony might be fixing various Sony/Zeiss lens issues but it obviously can't do that with any legacy lens. Maybe this is factor in what you are seeing.

For example, I stopped using RAW with a sony RX100II because the jpegs had all kinds of lens faults fixed SOC (in jpeg only) whilst if I shot RAW I had much more work to do to get an acceptable imag.

Sep 07, 2015 at 12:00 AM

Luvwine
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

JohnJ wrote:
Luvwine, when you say the images are SOC are they jpegs or RAW files?

If RAW I wonder if the Sony applies it's various lens corrections to the RAW file as well as the jpegs. I'm just wondering if you are comparing apples with apples in that the Sony might be fixing various Sony/Zeiss lens issues but it obviously can't do that with any legacy lens. Maybe this is factor in what you are seeing.

For example, I stopped using RAW with a sony RX100II because the jpegs had all kinds of lens faults fixed SOC (in jpeg only) whilst if I...Show more →

I only shoot raw. I wondered the same thing about whether there is any "cooking" going on with native lenses. If so, that may explain some of the color differences.

Sep 07, 2015 at 12:26 AM

johnctharp
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

Luvwine wrote:
I only shoot raw. I wondered the same thing about whether there is any "cooking" going on with native lenses. If so, that may explain some of the color differences.

With Sony, no RAW is safe...

Sep 07, 2015 at 01:04 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Can someone explain how lenses affect color?

johnctharp wrote:
With Sony, no RAW is safe...

Maybe the current, lossy compressed Sony raws are better referred to as "RAWPEGS".

Sep 07, 2015 at 01:39 PM

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