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Archive 2015 · Was the Canon 5DS/R DXO Mark score ever explained?

  
 
Moroni
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Was the Canon 5DS/R DXO Mark score ever explained?


Possibly in the market for a Canon 5DS or R.

I know initially there was some surprise over the discrepancy in scores at DXO Mark between the two cameras. Some people also stated that the 5DSR has worse color accuracy scores than the 5D Mark III and the 5DS.

Was this ever explained? If moiré is NOT a concern of mine is there a reason to get the 5DS over the R for its better color accuracy and noise profile?

I did a search for this but all I found was the questions but no answers.

Thanks!

-Brian



Aug 10, 2015 at 10:27 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Was the Canon 5DS/R DXO Mark score ever explained?


The difference between 5dsr and 5ds in dxomark was likely due to plus/minus accuracy on their testing. The numbers were the same rounded. They are the same. The only difference is that one has no moire reducing filter and the other has the aa filter and then reverses it to effectively have none. If you took two 5ds's and compared them the copy differences would likely result in different readings.

There is a debate whether the reversal of the anti aliasing actually adds resolution or just results in noise amplification that makes straight lines look more distinct (equivalent of sharpening) thus resulting in higher resolution readings on tests that measure resolution of straight lines (because thats what most resolution tests measure - straight lines and the ability to resolve them). My view is that 5dsr achieves more resolution but not as much as the tests indicate. It has to degrade the image slightly to purposely blur the image and then deconvolve the blur. Lenrentals.com blog shows the 5dsr resolving more but read this paragraph again you might conclude that its a false indicator.

The consensus is that if you do architecture (parallel lines) or products (wool with patterns for example) or some other pursuit amenable to moire you should buy the non R. Keep in mind that close up of feathered ducks will yield some moire. So if you are worried get a non R. Myself I bought the R because I mostly shoot landscape which is irregular (not overly subject to moire) , and i have used the a7r (non aa filter) without issue for 2 years, and if I am going for resolution (I am buying 50mpx) I want more effective mpx.

My experience with my 5dsr is very good color accuracy. I like it more than the 5diii but thats not scientific.



Aug 10, 2015 at 10:37 PM
Monito
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Was the Canon 5DS/R DXO Mark score ever explained?


I am finding my 5DS is a wonderful camera and I'm very pleased with the images it produces. The 5DS/R has been tweaked and improved in just about every way. It is not 'revolutionary', but it is an excellent value for this day and age.

The bizarre score differences at DXO need to be kept in perspective that, as their own site says, differences of 5 (for example) would be almost impossible to detect visually in side by side comparisons if you are specifically looking for the attribute. If you are just comparing large prints where you don't know which is which, even professionals are not able to distinguish any better than chance. Additionally, DXO has idiosyncratic testing methods and strange weighting factors, so their results need to be noted, but not primarily relied on.

Don't fret, don't measurebate, get the 5DS/R. I suggest the 5DS, but the 5DsR is excellent too.



Aug 11, 2015 at 04:51 AM
rattlebonez
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Was the Canon 5DS/R DXO Mark score ever explained?


DXO scores are useless

As Monito says, I am finding the 5DS to be a wonderful camera



Aug 11, 2015 at 09:15 AM
darbo
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Was the Canon 5DS/R DXO Mark score ever explained?


Another super-satisfied 5DS owner here. The files are breathtaking to work with. I have used other cameras with far superior DXO scores (D800, D810, and a7R), but the 5DS is my preference for all my tripod work (landscapes, cityscapes, streetscapes...all the scapes).


Aug 11, 2015 at 10:04 AM
molson
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Was the Canon 5DS/R DXO Mark score ever explained?


Moroni wrote:
Possibly in the market for a Canon 5DS or R.



If you have to rely on DxO Mark scores for your purchasing decision, I suspect you would be better off starting out with a simpler camera - after all, it gets the same score as the 5DSR...



Aug 11, 2015 at 12:14 PM
killersnowman
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Was the Canon 5DS/R DXO Mark score ever explained?


Couldnt agree more. Even my old A7r is better on paper but i find the 5dsr files much much much nicer to work with. Happy 5dsr owner here

darbo wrote:
Another super-satisfied 5DS owner here. The files are breathtaking to work with. I have used other cameras with far superior DXO scores (D800, D810, and a7R), but the 5DS is my preference for all my tripod work (landscapes, cityscapes, streetscapes...all the scapes).




Aug 11, 2015 at 01:11 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Was the Canon 5DS/R DXO Mark score ever explained?


Moroni wrote:
Possibly in the market for a Canon 5DS or R.

I know initially there was some surprise over the discrepancy in scores at DXO Mark between the two cameras. Some people also stated that the 5DSR has worse color accuracy scores than the 5D Mark III and the 5DS.

Was this ever explained? If moiré is NOT a concern of mine is there a reason to get the 5DS over the R for its better color accuracy and noise profile?

I did a search for this but all I found was the questions but no answers.

Thanks!

-Brian


One reason the topic disappeared is that it bore little or no relationship to anything that users of the camera saw in their photographs.

You will also not the striking near-non-existence of complaints about either version of the camera from the many people who purchased one. Compare that to the usual complaint memes that arise when a new camera is introduced. (Perhaps in the current climate that has been displaced to the ever-fun "brand wars" controversies that seem to now infect the forum, and from whom most of the "complaints" about this camera come.)

Be cautious about the DXO "ratings" numbers. While DXO evaluations are based on data, the interpretation and weighting of these data are not well understood by most people who quote "the numbers," and they frequently do not mean what people take the numbers to mean.

I have a 5DsR and it is working beautifully for me. In truth, I think that the actual image quality differences between the 5Ds and the 5DsR are incredibly small — a bit more potential susceptibility to visible aliasing in one case and a bit more potential resolution in the other. Overall my experience with the 5DsR is that if feels much like using earlier models of the 5D (and, to me, that is a Good Thing) but with even better image quality in a number of ways, and with other useful additional features and refinements.

(My hunch is that Canon (like Nikon when the D800 and D800e were released) was hedging its bets with is first non-anti-aliasing DSLR, not quite sure how the market would perceive it. Further, I'm betting that (again like Nikon) Canon will eventually only produce a non-anti-aliasing high MP camera in the 5D-series and possibly other places in its lineup.)

Dan



Aug 11, 2015 at 01:20 PM
RustyBug
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Was the Canon 5DS/R DXO Mark score ever explained?


gdanmitchell wrote:
possibly other places in its lineup.


Given the similar pixel density, the 7D II R would seem a reasonable place to consider kicking the AA filter aside (or semi-rotational AA as it seems to be for uniform manufacturing processes).



Aug 11, 2015 at 01:39 PM
Moroni
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Was the Canon 5DS/R DXO Mark score ever explained?


Scott Stoness wrote:
The difference between 5dsr and 5ds in dxomark was likely due to plus/minus accuracy on their testing. The numbers were the same rounded. They are the same. The only difference is that one has no moire reducing filter and the other has the aa filter and then reverses it to effectively have none. If you took two 5ds's and compared them the copy differences would likely result in different readings.

There is a debate whether the reversal of the anti aliasing actually adds resolution or just results in noise amplification that makes straight lines look more distinct (equivalent of sharpening)
...Show more

Thanks Scott this was exactly what I needed to know.

What's funny is after I posted this last night I thought I bet a get a bunch of "DXO Mark is useless" and "only idiots choose a camera based on DXO mark scores" type responses.

Sure enough I was right, despite the fact that my question had nothing to do with DXO Mark scores and everything to do with potential color accuracy differences and issues between the 5DS and R. After all if DXO scores were a primary consideration I would not be looking at Canon cameras would I?

My main interests are landscape, portraits, and kids/family so I think the 5DSR will be a good fit. If color filters/accruary and noise levels are nearly identical between the two cameras and moire is NOT a concern of my mine it looks like the 5DSR will be a good choice for me.

I admit though, the Sony A7R II is still in contention. Tough choice! Though I think I'll be much happier with my 16-35, 24-70, and 70-200 than the Batis 25, 85, and Zeiss 55. Three primes seems limiting and I don't like the soft corners of the Sony FE 16-35.

Thanks.

-Brian












Aug 11, 2015 at 04:41 PM
rattlebonez
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Was the Canon 5DS/R DXO Mark score ever explained?


you can always rent a camera body and try it out first


Aug 11, 2015 at 05:30 PM
scalesusa
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Was the Canon 5DS/R DXO Mark score ever explained?


DXO does not explain their scores, they have a severe conflict of interest, having produced their own camera and scored it high but have not explained how they arrived at the rating.


Aug 11, 2015 at 07:21 PM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Was the Canon 5DS/R DXO Mark score ever explained?


Moroni wrote:
Thanks Scott this was exactly what I needed to know.

What's funny is after I posted this last night I thought I bet a get a bunch of "DXO Mark is useless" and "only idiots choose a camera based on DXO mark scores" type responses.

Sure enough I was right, despite the fact that my question had nothing to do with DXO Mark scores and everything to do with potential color accuracy differences and issues between the 5DS and R. After all if DXO scores were a primary consideration I would not be looking at Canon cameras would I?

My main interests
...Show more

Brian - I have the a7r for the last two years - I have been reading about the a7rii and its issues. My view is:


At the simplest level:

5ds/r -
has more mpx
works without adapters with canon lens - this is a really big deal. For landscape, there is no native tilt shift lens for sony. And adapters cause more tolerance/alignment problems.
has a mature menu system
is way heavier and larger

a7rii:
- is way lighter
- can work with almost any lens except short wide rangefinder lens
- is a pain in the but with adapters.
- has more dynamic range below iso 800
- is cheaper
- I have not been impressed by the sony zoom lens particularly the 24-70
- not a wildlife camera
- is frustrating in battery performance

I have chosen 5dsr. I am familiar with canon menu system and find it to be the best over nikon or sony. I like the canon mount lens best. And I find that the a7rx are not small enough and light enough to be considered small and light. But thats just my view.




Edited on Aug 12, 2015 at 07:46 AM · View previous versions



Aug 11, 2015 at 09:07 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Was the Canon 5DS/R DXO Mark score ever explained?


scalesusa wrote:
DXO does not explain their scores, they have a severe conflict of interest, having produced their own camera and scored it high but have not explained how they arrived at the rating.


They do sort of explain it or at least parts of it, but the problem remains that few who assign meaning to the scores understand what they mean. I have read some of the explanations and I'm afraid that I can't recall precisely what the scores indicate.

Scott Stoness wrote:
a7rii:
- has more dynamic range above iso 400


Scott, I thought that more or less the opposite was true — that the DR benefits come at base ISO and decline to become little if any different at higher ISOs.

Dan



Aug 11, 2015 at 09:29 PM
alundeb
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Was the Canon 5DS/R DXO Mark score ever explained?


scalesusa wrote:
DXO does not explain their scores, they have a severe conflict of interest, having produced their own camera and scored it high but have not explained how they arrived at the rating.


The DxO One "SuperRaw" Camera is nothing but the standard DxO one Camera capturing 4 images in succession and stacking them in software. This boosts the score with 15 points, and is a complete joke. This is the worst I have ever seen from DxO.



Aug 12, 2015 at 03:22 AM
melcat
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Was the Canon 5DS/R DXO Mark score ever explained?


Moroni wrote:
Possibly in the market for a Canon 5DS or R.

I know initially there was some surprise over the discrepancy in scores at DXO Mark between the two cameras. Some people also stated that the 5DSR has worse color accuracy scores than the 5D Mark III and the 5DS.

Was this ever explained?


I know someone in the earlier thread said they'd emailed DxO to ask for an explanation, but that thread was derailed (3 times over) and I don't know whether an answer was ever received. Judging by the complete nonsense DxO tech support gave to someone over at LuLa when they asked about the clipping to AdobeRGB in DxO's Optics Pro product, I wouldn't bet on it.

If anyone here speaks French natively, perhaps they might get a more sensible response to an emailed question in that language. It could well be that the engineers who know the answer are more likely to see or answer a question in French than in English.

(Personally, I'm just curious. I detest the 5D series user interface.)




Aug 12, 2015 at 04:12 AM





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