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Archive 2015 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?

  
 
lenticular11
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?



I very recently picked up a mint Tele-Elmarit 90/1.8 (type 11800) for a very good price. I already have a CV 90/3.5 APO that I like a lot and TBH I haven't seen much difference between them in recent limited testing (medium to long distance subjects).

Someone local is trying to shift a Summarit 90/2.5, also for what appears to be a good price. I am thinking of trading my Tele-Elmarit for the Summarit with some cash (US$300 approximately).

The Summarit owner thinks that the Tele-Elmarit is a better lens.

I'm very keen to hear opinions opinions on the merits of each lens, and if I am sensible to consider this trade or not!

TIA

David




Aug 06, 2015 at 07:41 AM
naturephoto1
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?


lenticular11 wrote:
I very recently picked up a mint Tele-Elmarit 90/1.8 (type 11800) for a very good price. I already have a CV 90/3.5 APO that I like a lot and TBH I haven't seen much difference between them in recent limited testing (medium to long distance subjects).

Someone local is trying to shift a Summarit 90/2.5, also for what appears to be a good price. I am thinking of trading my Tele-Elmarit for the Summarit with some cash (US$300 approximately).

The Summarit owner thinks that the Tele-Elmarit is a better lens.

I'm very keen to hear opinions opinions on the merits of each
...Show more

Hi David,

The Leica M Tele-Elmarit 90mm f2.8 (not f1.8) lens is an older design than the recently discontinued Summarit 90mm f2.5 lens. The Tele-Elmarit was replaced by the Leica M 90mm f2.8 Elmarit which is superior to the Tele- Elmarit. The 90mm Elmarit lens was replaced by the 90mm f2.5 Summarit. The 90mm Elmarit uses the older helicoid and some prefer the feel of the focus of the lens which came with a built in lens hood. The Elmarit tends to be somewhat front heavy that can be noticed when mounted on something like the Sony A7 series cameras. The Summarit uses a different helicoid and a feel to the focus that some have equated to not being of the same quality as the older lenses. The Summarit by design is not nearly as front heavy as the Elmarit and is a bit lighter than the Elmarit. additionally the Summait does not come with a lens hood that is available that screws into the lens in the shooting and also reversed direction making the lens more compact to carry. There is a debate as to which of the Elmarit or the Summarit actually perform better. Some prefer one, others the other lens. I opted for the 90mm f2.5 Summarit that I purchased on ebay with the hood included. I wanted the lighter lens which would balance better on my A7r camera. I have been extremely pleased with my purchase.

But, as to the question is the Tele Elmar or the Summarit the better lens, the Summarit performs better but if you need the lighter weight, some prefer the Tele Elmarit.

Rich



Edited on Aug 06, 2015 at 09:17 AM · View previous versions



Aug 06, 2015 at 09:13 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?


The tele-elmarit owners also think it's better


Aug 06, 2015 at 09:16 AM
naturephoto1
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?


edwardkaraa wrote:
The tele-elmarit owners also think it's better


Hi Edward,

I think that is more the question of Leica M owners is the Elmarit or the Summmarit the better lens. Not as much is the Tele-Elmarit better than the Elmarit or the Summarit the better/best performer. The Tele-Elmarit is the smallest and lightest of the 3 but the Elmarit and the Summarit are both supposed to be sharper than the Tele-Elmairt. But of course, sharpness is not the only parameter upon which to judge a lens.

Rich



Aug 06, 2015 at 09:21 AM
lenticular11
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?


Hi Rich,

Thank you very much for your quick and detailed reply. My reference to the Tele-Elmarit being a 1.8 (!) was a typo.
Your comment that the Elmarit tends to be front-heavy I presume is a reference to the later Elmarit, since the Tele-Elmarit (thin model - type 11800) is a very small compact and relatively light lens.

Your final sentence is the clincher for me and, dare I say it, also concurs with Rockwell once one reads beyond the usual hyperbole (and having sufficient grains of salt when reading any of his output ).

I am also an A7R user and your experience with that camera is valuable, although I was primarily enquiring re using on my M9.

thanks again,
David

David



Aug 06, 2015 at 09:22 AM
lenticular11
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?


Two replies, two opinions....c'est la vie!

Hi Edward - thanks for your valued input...please elaborate! . You of all people will also appreciate that I have a third option to my Tele-Elmarit; a Contax G90 that I could (should) also get converted to LM.




Aug 06, 2015 at 09:25 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?


Rich, indeed the elmarit is the better lens, but even the tele-elmarit seems to be quite good as well.


Aug 06, 2015 at 09:30 AM
naturephoto1
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?


lenticular11 wrote:
Hi Rich,

Thank you very much for your quick and detailed reply. My reference to the Tele-Elmarit being a 1.8 (!) was a typo.
Your comment that the Elmarit tends to be front-heavy I presume is a reference to the later Elmarit, since the Tele-Elmarit (thin model - type 11800) is a very small compact and relatively light lens.

Your final sentence is the clincher for me and, dare I say it, also concurs with Rockwell once one reads beyond the usual hyperbole (and having sufficient grains of salt when reading any of his output ).

I am also an A7R user and
...Show more

Hi David,

Yes my comments regarding being front heavy is regarding the larger and heavier Elmarit, not the Tele-Elmarit. I hope I didn't make any errors in trying to mention the Tele-Elmarit or the Elmarit lenses in my comments.

I really personally only have experience with the Summarit, but my comments regarding the other 2 lenses are based upon comments by members of FM and other Ken Rockwell and other websites. I was in the position deciding upon either the Elmarit or the Summarit in the early part of 2015. I had to make my decision based upon recommendations from FM and what I read on-line and to make an educated decision. I have not been disappointed with my purchase and the Summarit is also 1/2 stop faster (may not be of that much value to your) than either the Tele-Elmarit or the Elmarit lenses.

Rich



Edited on Aug 06, 2015 at 09:42 AM · View previous versions



Aug 06, 2015 at 09:31 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?



lenticular11 wrote:
Two replies, two opinions....c'est la vie!

Hi Edward - thanks for your valued input...please elaborate! . You of all people will also appreciate that I have a third option to my Tele-Elmarit; a Contax G90 that I could (should) also get converted to LM.


Sorry to confuse you Dave

I have tried the summarit at a local shop and didn't like it much, but I'm no Leica expert. I think Rich summed it up quite well. From what I have seen from endlessly comparing images on Flickr, I would get the elmarit as first option, but between the tele-elmarit and summarit, I'm not really sure but I think the summarit may be slightly better but with more aberrations.



Aug 06, 2015 at 09:34 AM
naturephoto1
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?


lenticular11 wrote:
Two replies, two opinions....c'est la vie!

Hi Edward - thanks for your valued input...please elaborate! . You of all people will also appreciate that I have a third option to my Tele-Elmarit; a Contax G90 that I could (should) also get converted to LM.



Hi David,

Others on the forum (like Derek [sebboh] can really fill you in on the converted to an M mount manual focus mount for the Contax G90. From what members have reported, the lens is a very very good performer; the manual focus not so much. Hopefully others will check in on this.

Rich



Aug 06, 2015 at 09:37 AM
lenticular11
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?


edwardkaraa wrote:
Sorry to confuse you Dave

I have tried the summarit at a local shop and didn't like it much, but I'm no Leica expert. I think Rich summed it up quite well. From what I have seen from endlessly comparing images on Flickr, I would get the elmarit as first option, but between the tele-elmarit and summarit, I'm not really sure but I think the summarit may be slightly better but with more aberrations.


---------------------------------------------

No confusion Edward - all good!

naturephoto1 wrote:
Hi David,

Others on the forum (like Derek [sebboh] can really fill you in on the converted to an M mount manual focus mount for the Contax G90. From what members have reported, the lens is a very very good performer; the manual focus not so much. Hopefully others will check in on this.

Rich


Thanks Rich,

in fact I had a G45/2 converted and loved that lens. I traded it and another lens, in part payment for a P645D, so you see that lens weight and size are relative!! I don't doubt that the G90 converted will be great (however getting a good LM conversion in terms of quality of material and execution is not a given).



I will try and do a direct A-B test, with downloads to a laptop running both C1 Pro and LR, in order to evaluate both my Tele-Elmarit and the Summarit. It's fortunate that the seller is local.



Aug 06, 2015 at 09:46 AM
joe88
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?


I will take the Summarit 90 2.5 over Tele-E.

I had a Summarit 90 2.5, but sold because I also have a 90APO Cron (90 APO is probably one of Leica's best lens in my opinion). Kept my Tele-E because of its compact size, this is the main reason to keep the lens - size.

90 Tele-E is old, flares a lot and lose contrast very easily without a hood. It is susceptible to fogging and fungus which is irreversible, some say its due to oil or glue used (I can't recall). However, optically it is decent and stopped down to f/4, its great for a older design with only 4 elements, caveat is you have to watch out for flare. I still keep mine due to its compact size. Had it coded by DAG.

90 Summarit - I didn't like the screw in large hood but it is a very nice lens, not as clinical as a modern ASPH Leica but nothing to complain. I think my copy of this lens is still circulated around this forum by fellow FM'ers D



Aug 06, 2015 at 10:29 AM
Gary Clennan
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?


joe88 wrote:
I will take the Summarit 90 2.5 over Tele-E.


X2. I own the 90 Summarit and think it is a very solid performer. Modern design/coatings and very well built. I would choose it anyday over the tele-E (which I have also owned).



Aug 06, 2015 at 10:35 AM
zhangyue
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?


Optically, Summarit will definitely preferred compare to tele-E. but I also heard many good thing about tele-E: size,(for sure) rendering which could be true based on my experience with older leica lens. It is really depend what is your target usage. For portrait, you might find yourself prefer one over the other. For more all around, there is no comparison. Summarit win hand down.

Choose between Elamrit and Summarit will be a tough decision. Elamrit has slightly better build but 1/3 stop slower. Both optically great. I have used 90 Elamrit, and I am using 75mm Summarit. the 75mm I have is a very strong performer (better than Elamrit 90 at WO) can challenge 90APO at infinity I had for a short time. The reason I let 90 elamrit go is I never warm up with 90mm on RF. With 75 Summarit, I seems get comparable or better keeper than 50lux. Using that lens is joy on RF, very predictable, no FC, spot on both MFD and infinity, very rare experience for me.

I heard 90 Summarit is almost as good as 75 Summarit,(also based on MTF) so I think that is a safe bet.

One small thing, Summarit has rubber focus ring. It is very comfortable to focusing but not the same prime feel of metal as Elamrit



Aug 06, 2015 at 12:09 PM
flash
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?


I sold my T-E (thin) for a Summarit 2.5. I think it was a good decision. I much prefer the Summarit over the T-E.

Gordon



Aug 06, 2015 at 03:21 PM
adamdewilde
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?


Tele-E not a great lens. Flare problems crop up all the time. Rendering is a bit flat and colors a bit grey. Easy for contrast to wash right out of it in certain lighting conditions. Tends to tint more to the green/yellows which can be problematic in some instances. Still better rendering then what you'd expect from Canon/Nikon though.

non-tele Elmarit is a bit better, sharper, slightly nicer colors. Slightly more flare resistant. Bigger. But all this isn't by to much.. And still similar problems as mentioned above.

Summarit is best. Nicer colors/contrast, but rendering can be a bit to sterile sometimes. Hood is annoying, I don't use it for that reason. Produces the most consistent results. Best out of the bunch for a reliable good lens with a unique enough rendering.

Non-tele Elmarit feels nicest in hand BTW.
Having owned all, I'd stick recommend the summarit.


90APO isn't being considered here, but I feel it's the best of the best. I gave up on it for a long while, but have recently shifted back to it (last 3 months). Don't really use any other 90s now.



Aug 06, 2015 at 03:30 PM
lenticular11
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?


Thanks very much to you all (Joe, Gary, Michael, Gordon and Adam). It's invaluable to receive direct experience from users of both lenses (and the Elmarit and Crons of all types).

If the seller wishes to proceed then I will buy the Summarit. If not then I will probably sell the Tele and continue to use my CV90APO and get the Contax G90 converted...and possibly seek out an Elmarit or Cron in due course.

Of course money no object I would also go for the 90 APO



Aug 06, 2015 at 06:20 PM
naturephoto1
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?


lenticular11 wrote:
Thanks very much to you all (Joe, Gary, Michael, Gordon and Adam). It's invaluable to receive direct experience from users of both lenses (and the Elmarit and Crons of all types).

If the seller wishes to proceed then I will buy the Summarit. If not then I will probably sell the Tele and continue to use my CV90APO and get the Contax G90 converted...and possibly seek out an Elmarit or Cron in due course.

Of course money no object I would also go for the 90 APO


Dave,

It largely comes down to how you use the lens. The 90mm Apo is also larger and heavier than the 90mm Summarit. When stopped down and when used for landscape work the the Summarit approaches the performance of the Apo. For me, since I was going to use the lens largely for landscape and usually stopped down, and I wanted a very sharp and small, compact, light lens I opted for the Summarit. Besides in my case if I needed an even better performer for close-up, macro, and other work I also have my Leica R 100mm f2.8 Apo-Macro-Elmarit that probably performs even at infinity of similar of superior performance to either the 90mm Apo or the 90mm Summarit. But, the R 100mm Apo=Macro-Elmarit is substantially larger and heavier than the other 2 options.

Rich

Edited on Aug 07, 2015 at 06:27 AM · View previous versions



Aug 06, 2015 at 07:17 PM
AmbientMike
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?


Well, I haven't used any of these, but this thread was a good excuse to get my older book out, which helped me figure out which lenses were being discussed.

One thing that I noticed was that the 90/2.5 Summarit wasn't in the book, and the tele-Elmarit was discontinued in '89. So the Summarit is a newer lens, and newer lenses are generally better, better coatings, etc.

Another thing I noticed is that there are 2 versions of 11800, the Tele-Elmarit. Version 1,1964-74, scalloped focus ring, is 325g. Version 2, 1974-89, knurled focus, is listed at 220g.

That is very small for a metal 90mm, I suspect. Plus its apparently telephoto, so shorter. If the Summitar isn't a true telephoto design, I would think it would be longer.

Ken Rockwell didn't care for the mechanics of the Summitar. I thought optics were #1, but I was using a mechanically nice lens recently, and mechanical perfection is nice to use. So you should probably consider that as well.

They're probably all quite nice.

Normally I think the slower Leica lenses are better, but the 90 APO looks like it's the best here. But heavier, of course.



Aug 06, 2015 at 10:50 PM
rico
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Leica M 90 advice pls - Tele-Elmarit (11800) or Summarit 90/2.5?


Claim to fame for the "thin" Tele-Elmarit is f/2.8 while keeping the weight down. As mentioned, build quality, optical performance and flare management is suspect for a Leitz lens of that vintage. I like old glass with metal build and lower weight, so the Elmar 90 was my choice: the 3- and 4-element rigids are a delight. For modern rendition (but greater mass), I would select the late Elmarit-M. I also own the original Elmarit and, while it has about the best handling ever, the optical performance is lacking. Looks pretty, though.




Aug 07, 2015 at 12:37 AM
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