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Archive 2015 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr

  
 
chez
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p.6 #1 · p.6 #1 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr


Schlotkins wrote:
Interesting test. The A7RII image looks a lot better than even the A7R image. However, as noted, there are a lot of differences here so I'm not sure how much I believe it. The author states it's about a 2 stop advantage over the canon but the A7R already has a 2 stop advantage so that doesn't make sense.

Anyway, looking forward to a more scientific tests as well as Fred's impressions.

BTW, I also agree with that the DR advantage really only matters for landscapers. When I'm shooting wildlife, I'm rarely below 400ISO where that advantage disappears.

Chris


Comes into play with cityscapes as well were there are many occasions of dark alleys and bright sunlit buildings. Also internal residential photography require a high dynamic range to handle bright window light coming into a darker inside room.

My understanding there are occasions during weddings where outdoor shots could use more dynamic range, but I don't have direct experience with this. I would think there are many more examples where more dynamic range would be very welcome.



Aug 05, 2015 at 02:47 PM
JaimitoFrog
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p.6 #2 · p.6 #2 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr


That OP linked article even said he agreed with this statement:
"Choose the Sony if you are too drunk to expose properly."

Sounds like an amateur cam winner.



Aug 05, 2015 at 03:52 PM
RustyBug
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p.6 #3 · p.6 #3 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr


Sneakyracer wrote:
No surprise that the Sony A7RII is THE Best choice for Landscape/Architecture photography at base iso. No question about it.


I might revise this a bit to say that the A7R II (predicated upon A7R history) is "best" at showing its strengths in landscape / architectural settings, where its base ISO can be well harnessed via slower exposures and tripod utilization to work with stopped down apertures well with its low base ISO, rewarding the shooter with an opportunity to harness more light for reduced noise files in certain uber-dynamically challenging situations.

The farther you go beyond the base ISO, the strengths of it's difference are decreased accordingly.

I'm inclined to think that folks @ Leica S2, Phase One, Hasselblad, etc. might have a difference of opinion regarding the Sony as having a "no question about it" THE Best choice for ...



Edited on Aug 05, 2015 at 04:20 PM · View previous versions



Aug 05, 2015 at 04:12 PM
Fast6
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p.6 #4 · p.6 #4 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr


Test methodology or results aside, it's curious that this topic has gotten 4x the attention in the Canon forum than it has in the Sony forum.


Aug 05, 2015 at 04:15 PM
Schlotkins
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p.6 #5 · p.6 #5 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr


chez wrote:
Comes into play with cityscapes as well were there are many occasions of dark alleys and bright sunlit buildings. Also internal residential photography require a high dynamic range to handle bright window light coming into a darker inside room.

My understanding there are occasions during weddings where outdoor shots could use more dynamic range, but I don't have direct experience with this. I would think there are many more examples where more dynamic range would be very welcome.


I should have said 'scapes.' Obviously city situations are good. My point was usually when you have action, you are not shooting at base ISO. Once you get into the 400 ISO range, the difference is minimal. Even at ISO 200, the A7R has less than a stop over the 5Ds.





Aug 05, 2015 at 04:27 PM
chez
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p.6 #6 · p.6 #6 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr


RustyBug wrote:
I might revise this a bit to say that the A7R II (predicated upon A7R history) is "best" at showing its strengths in landscape / architectural settings, where its base ISO can be well harnessed via slower exposures and tripod utilization to work with stopped down apertures well with its low base ISO, rewarding the shooter with an opportunity to harness more light for reduced noise files in certain uber-dynamically challenging situations.

The farther you go beyond the base ISO, the strengths of it's difference are decreased accordingly.

I'm inclined to think that folks @ Leica S2, Phase One, Hasselblad, etc. might
...Show more

I also very interested how the high ISO performs in the A7R2...we might be in for another surprise. I've seen some amazing low light video from it.




Aug 05, 2015 at 04:29 PM
artd
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p.6 #7 · p.6 #7 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr


DtEW wrote:
If I facetiously claim that I am a pretty unicorn, would I be necessarily be implying that somebody accused me of being a pretty unicorn, thereby facilitating a claim of misrepresentation/slander/victimhood?

You're reading way too much into what wasn't said.


Exactly.

There's way too much of "reading too much into" this or that going around.

Edited on Aug 05, 2015 at 05:04 PM · View previous versions



Aug 05, 2015 at 04:53 PM
timparkin
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p.6 #8 · p.6 #8 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr


RustyBug wrote:
That would be good to see. Hopefully in a more "straightforward" manner ... changing only one variable (ISO), leaving the other aspects of exposure & lighting constant. Once we start making multiple variable "tests", then it really muddies the water, raising the results into more question than answer.

If one needs to do multiple tests regarding multiple aspects, so be it do them independently. THEN, after showing the individual aspects, you can "play" with multiple variables and folks can then see the synthesis possibilities ... but when you start off with multiple variables in your approach, it makes it kinda tough
...Show more

Can you have a look at this and tell me which of the two Sony files match the Canon file better?

http://static.timparkin.co.uk/onlandscape/SonyLakes/latrigg-hotel/rawdigger.jpg

I may be going data blind now but I'm sure it's the one I've used..

Tim

p.s. I'm uploading another article with more crops that show similar results including studio comparison. The Sony A7R and Sony A7Rii are odd. I'm not sure if it's sensor heating up but when the A7Rii actually records slightly less DR than the A7R (in imatest) but the shadows look better colour out of camera. Looking closer the A7R gets cleaner info (sharper edges) compared with the A7Rii. Overall I think the A7R actually has slightly cleaner shadows with more detail but you have to play with them more than the A7Rii to get to that nice detail.




Aug 05, 2015 at 04:56 PM
artd
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p.6 #9 · p.6 #9 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr




The A7RII is the best choice, does not mean it is going to be everyone's preferred choice obviously since camera choice is quite personal.


And also too much exaggeration going around. I'd side with Dan on this one, it's a poor choice of words to say "camera xyz" is the "best" choice for "whatever."

We are delving very far into semantics now, but logically there is no way to say one camera is the "best" choice. Certainly, I think the statement about "preferred" choice is correct. But if a camera is someone's preferred choice, it is preferred because it is the best choice for them.

So the only way a camera is a best choice for someone is if it is also their preferred choice. And, as we've established, preference is personal, so therefore there can be no universal "best" choice.




Aug 05, 2015 at 04:58 PM
timparkin
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p.6 #10 · p.6 #10 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr


Monito wrote:
The guy was so eager to get something, anything, on to the web As Soon As Possible that he sloppily did an ill-conceived test and then a sloppy writeup that has required multiple amendments.

And we are supposed to respect that web guy?

Thanks snapsy for helping put this into perspective.


Ermm - the "amendments" were:

1) A response to someone saying there are no real world conditions like that shown in the test

2) An additional test showing the difference between the Canon and the Sony at a differet EV offset

3) Extra information from an Imatest study and trying to draw some conclusions.

None of these are amendments in my eyes, they were additional information I thought was interesting to people.

As for the exposure offset, the ambient conditions changed but that doesn't nullify the test. I never said anything about the difference in exposure - I just explained the methodology. If the light changes what are you supposed to do? Does it make testing in the landscape irrelevant?

I've also uploaded a rawdigger comparison of the files showing that the comparison is good but I don't suppose anybody is interesting in actually working their way to conclusions when jumping is so much more fun!





Aug 05, 2015 at 05:18 PM
timparkin
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p.6 #11 · p.6 #11 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr


Here's the rawdigger analysis of the highlights showing the choice of one of two Canon files to go with the Sony.

http://static.timparkin.co.uk/onlandscape/SonyLakes/latrigg-hotel/rawdigger2.jpg

As you can see, the 'closer' exposure is clipping dramatically in the quarry area (highlighted).

Again - I admit I might be wrong but I don't think it's in the choice of frames and exposures. I could quite easily be out by a third of a stop but not by 1 1/3 stops that people are accusing me of being. (unless they think there is a different reason the test is wrong?).

Tim

p.s. I own the Canon 5DSr and the Sony A7Rii - they are both stunning cameras and have their own unique attributes. I may keep one or the other but if I were a professional photographer I'd be torn to choose which. As it is I'm only an amateur and my main camera of choice is a 10x8 Toyo and Portra 400 film..



Aug 05, 2015 at 05:22 PM
GreeneParrot
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p.6 #12 · p.6 #12 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr


Tim, thank you for the analysis and for the great magazine! I'm still torn between the D810, the 5DsR and the a7rII. I shoot landscapes and find that I do have to push the blacks here and there. I'm not tied to any of the systems, which makes the choice harder. The main selling factor for the Sony is that Clyde Butcher, one of my favorite local landscape photographers, is using a Sony a7r on a Cambo Actus - and he primarily uses 8x10 and 20x24.


Aug 05, 2015 at 05:50 PM
snapsy
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p.6 #13 · p.6 #13 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr


timparkin wrote:
Here's the rawdigger analysis of the highlights showing the choice of one of two Canon files to go with the Sony.

http://static.timparkin.co.uk/onlandscape/SonyLakes/latrigg-hotel/rawdigger2.jpg

As you can see, the 'closer' exposure is clipping dramatically in the quarry area (highlighted).

Again - I admit I might be wrong but I don't think it's in the choice of frames and exposures. I could quite easily be out by a third of a stop but not by 1 1/3 stops that people are accusing me of being. (unless they think there is a different reason the test is wrong?).

Tim

p.s. I own the Canon 5DSr and
...Show more

Is your RawDigger's "File -> Preferences -> Data Processing -> Subtract Black" checked? If not then the values for the 5DSR will be 1536 ADU higher than the A7rII since the 5DSR has a black offset of 2048 and the A7rII 512. Plus the values may not be comparable anyway because the ADU scale will be different; you'll have to scale them relative to each camera's white point (clipping).



Aug 05, 2015 at 05:50 PM
timparkin
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p.6 #14 · p.6 #14 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr




snapsy wrote:
Is your RawDigger's "File -> Preferences -> Data Processing -> Subtract Black" checked? If not then the values for the 5DSR will be 1536 ADU higher than the A7rII since the 5DSR has a black offset of 2048 and the A7rII 512. Plus the values may not be comparable anyway because the ADU scale will be different; you'll have to scale them relative to each camera's white point (clipping).


I'll check but as far as I understand that doesn't affect clipping point?



Aug 05, 2015 at 06:25 PM
snapsy
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p.6 #15 · p.6 #15 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr


timparkin wrote:
I'll check but as far as I understand that doesn't affect clipping point?


It affects the total ADU value so that would affect the absolute ADU values you'll see as the clipping point. For example, if a Canon sensor's clipping point for the green channel is 14912 with the 2048 black offset included, it'll be 12865 with the black offset subtracted. Since Canon and Sony use different black offsets it's simpler to configure RawDigger to subtract it rather than you manually having to subtract 2048 or 512 depending on which camera's file you're looking at.



Aug 05, 2015 at 06:29 PM
timparkin
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p.6 #16 · p.6 #16 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr




snapsy wrote:
It affects the total ADU value so that would affect the absolute ADU values you'll see as the clipping point. For example, if a Canon sensor's clipping point for the green channel is 14912 with the 2048 black offset included, it'll be 12865 with the black offset subtracted. Since Canon and Sony use different black offsets it's simpler to configure RawDigger to subtract it rather than you manually having to subtract 2048 or 512 depending on which camera's file you're looking at.


Ok but if I work out the value that the sensor clips at and use this as my clipping point does it matter? I understand the absolute value might be different but for a relative difference does it matter?



Aug 05, 2015 at 06:34 PM
snapsy
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p.6 #17 · p.6 #17 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr


timparkin wrote:
Ok but if I work out the value that the sensor clips at and use this as my clipping point does it matter? I understand the absolute value might be different but for a relative difference does it matter?


Will be fine if you use it to establish the clipping point for a particular camera model and not try to correlate its absolute values to another camera model.



Aug 05, 2015 at 06:41 PM
timparkin
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p.6 #18 · p.6 #18 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr




snapsy wrote:
Will be fine if you use it to establish the clipping point for a particular camera model and not try to correlate its absolute values to another camera model.


Thanks!



Aug 05, 2015 at 06:45 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.6 #19 · p.6 #19 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr


Most likely because it unfairly maligned the performance of a Canon camera.

Fast6 wrote:
Test methodology or results aside, it's curious that this topic has gotten 4x the attention in the Canon forum than it has in the Sony forum.




Aug 05, 2015 at 06:54 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.6 #20 · p.6 #20 · Sony A7Rii compared with Sony A7R and Canon 5DSr


As to the sharpness differences there are several possible explanations. If you are considering 100% magnification crops in all cases, it is hard to control for the different portions of the respective images and the consequent effect of looking more or less closely at varying areas of the overall image. This is always a problem when comparing crops from sensors with different pixel dimensions.

timparkin wrote:
Can you have a look at this and tell me which of the two Sony files match the Canon file better?

http://static.timparkin.co.uk/onlandscape/SonyLakes/latrigg-hotel/rawdigger.jpg

I may be going data blind now but I'm sure it's the one I've used..

Tim

p.s. I'm uploading another article with more crops that show similar results including studio comparison. The Sony A7R and Sony A7Rii are odd. I'm not sure if it's sensor heating up but when the A7Rii actually records slightly less DR than the A7R (in imatest) but the shadows look better colour out of camera. Looking closer the A7R gets cleaner info (sharper edges) compared with
...Show more



Aug 05, 2015 at 06:58 PM
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