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Archive 2015 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3

  
 
Jonesy
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3


I shoot weddings with the 5D3 and 6D. Sigma 50 Art, 85L, 70-200, 100L Macro and just got the 24-70II but been thinking about selling it for the new Sigma 24-35 F2. I think the 5D3 and 6D make a great wedding combo. And I have shot sports with the 5D3 just just fine. Its no 1d4 speed but I don't feel the body caused me to miss shots. I'd love to attach a 300 2.8 to it though


Aug 10, 2015 at 07:44 PM
Emile Gregoire
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3


I had a 5D2/1D3 combo for a while and switched to two 5D2's because I wanted to have two full frame cameras of around 20Mp. Then, later on, I sold a 5D2 and got a 5D3. Shot that side by side with the 5D2 for a while. Then I got a good deal on a 1D4 and jumped for it but sold it after a week: I had grown so accustomed to using two full frame bodies that it just didn't click and most of the stuff I do is very low light and I found both 5D2 and 5D3 outperforming the 1D4. I now use two 5D3 bodies. If I were you I'd get a 5D3 and shoot that alongside your 5D2 and get the 85L. The 5D2 coupled with a 70-200 is excellent when using center point and focus-recompose isn't a big deal with the tele. Use the 5D3 for wide open wider lenses where focus-recompose isn't a very good idea.

Just my 2c.




Aug 11, 2015 at 01:11 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3


Hi Jonesy and Emile, thank you for your thoughts!

I feel I want to apologise to everyone who helped me think about 5D3/1D4 combo and now say I want two FF bodies. I'm sorry I didn't think this all through before starting this thread. But FWIW posting it and seeing your replies helped me organise my thoughts and come to my conclusion. Apparently Emile you have the same 2x FF preference yet you found out after buying and selling a 1D4. Hey I still may get a 1D4 at some point and use it for other stuff than weddings! And then I will remember your help.

So now I am actually leaning towards getting one 5D3 first and also get a 85L, so I can shoot dark churches with:
* 5D3+50L with 5D2+85L.
Is this doable? Is the 5D2 capable to AF the 85L? The 85L is also a 1.2 lens, just like the 50L. I never seem to be able to focus the 5D2+50L with confidence, but does anyone own and use a 5D2/85L combo in dark venues? If so, how does it perform.

I could always do some weddings and put the earnings towards a second 5D3 in about a year or two.

Stay good,
Ralph



Aug 11, 2015 at 06:25 PM
OntheRez
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3


Rabbit,

For what it's worth, I shot the 1DIV and the 1DsIII side by side for some time. In many ways it was a perfect combo as I shared batteries, and the interface and feel was the same. Now I categorically do not shoot weddings! Once was enough, twice was too much. I admire those who can do it.

Much more of my work is done in athletics so the 1DIV's 1.3 crop never seemed to be an issue. I also found that both cameras had excellent AF, fps (for their intended purposes), and great IQ. Now the limitation on the 1DsIII was real high ISO. It just wasn't designed for it. It sounds like you shoot in some dark places, though I suspect movement is not fast. It could be that your ISO needs are beyond the 1DsIII capabilities.

I upgraded to the 1Dx and the 5DIII. I know others say there's no problem switching between them, but I always have to stop and think/fiddle for a moment when picking up the 5DIII. This is likely in no small part due to the fact that I've shot 1D whatever cameras for quite some time.

On that theme, have you considered buying a 1Dx instead of the two different cameras? I'm guessing with the lowered price it wouldn't be too far off the cost of a 1DIV and a 5DIII. The 1Dx full frame is quite nice, AF is superb, I've gotten acceptable action shots at ISO 12800, and love how it handles.

Of course if you need two cameras for fast switching then just a 1Dx won't do it. Maybe I'm a bit slow witted but I quit trying to juggle two cameras quite sometime ago and just learned to switch lenses fast using an excellent belt and camera harness system. But as I noted, I DON'T do weddings so my observations may miss essential things about that art.

Whatever you get, the 1DIV is great and if you've been using a 5D... then you'll find the transition to the 5DIII easy. I do like the images I get from the 5DIII, but I use it mostly for landscape and some photojournalism.

Robert



Aug 12, 2015 at 09:33 AM
rabbitmountain
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3


Hi Robert, thank you so much for your reply. I think the 1Dx is a very nice camera, but it's not for me. I would like to have a smaller, inconspicuous body to pair with my 50L, that has the best silent shutter available and I need two of them. My budget at this moment is about 4000 and I also probably want to squeeze in a 85L. High fps and crop will be very nice for my hobby needs, but my priority goes to money makers. I'm also just a part-time photographer. It will take about two years to break even with even this investment.

My way of shooting weddings really is with two bodies. To provide a solid service to the client I absolutely need a backup camera that I could shoot an entire wedding with. My current "main" camera is a 5D2 and my current "backup" is a 5D classic. I know the classic used to be the FF standard as from 2005 and many pro wedding photographers shot their entire weddings with it but times have changed and with the 5D2 I can shoot almost exclusively non-flash. Let's say I'm very glad I've never had a 5D2 failure having to resort to 5Dc only.

The best kit option would of course be 2 5D3's and I could stretch to that but I would need to hold off buying additional lenses for some time.

Most likely, 5D3 + 50L + 5D2 + 85L is going to be my next setup.

Stay good,
Ralph



Aug 12, 2015 at 03:43 PM
OntheRez
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3


rabbit,
Got the absolute need for backup. Hell hath no fury compared to an ex-bride with no pix to prove it. I sometimes wonder if they need the shots to smack their husbands to reminded them of their marital vows.

If you can squeeze two 5DIIIs you'll be miles ahead cause the AF and superior ISO would really serve you well. As for the 85L. Well, I know the purists will want to burn me at the stake, but I found that the 85mm f/1.8 to perform almost as well as the 85L (excluding the L's superior bokeh). The 85L certainly wasn't 5X the $$ better, and I think the f/1.8 has better AF. I use it a lot in low light situations with a lot of movement. So maybe you can get the bodies and hold on the 85L till you get rich shooting brides. (And good luck with that one too

Robert

You're a better man than I Ralph, and I have nothing but admiration for good wedding photographers. Short of documenting combat I can't come up with a harder scenario where you HAVE to preform - no excuses. (Combat might also be safer than Mother of Bridezilla.)



Aug 12, 2015 at 04:00 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3


Of course I'm not a better man than you, don't be silly. Maybe I'm just crazy wanting to step more into the wedding photography. My first wedding was in 2009 for very good friends (2 guys) and I had only one body (5Dc). I almost sh*t in my pants. I had a 135L with backfocusing issues (5Dc had no MA), a 16-35ii, a 24-105 which was useless due to low light and I had a rented 70-200/2.8ii that I was not really familiar with. I was switching lenses all the time and most good shots came from the 70-200/2.8ii. Also a good part from my 135L with MF. I was sweating all over by the end of the ceremony. At first I thought "never again". But then I received an overwhelming appreciation from my friends. They had zero budget for a pro wedding photog so they just asked me and I did not charge them anything. The feeling of having given them great photographic memories was very satisfying. I haven't shot weddings on a monthly basis since, but I've done a few besides doing portraits, which is my main interest. I've always thought weddings were too stressful and I should stay away from them but the appreciation works like an addiction. I don't really need the weddings money as I have another 9-5 but I might even do them for free just for the joy and fulfillment.
After having seen images from Jeff Ascough, Jasmine Starr and Lisa Holloway I realised that I could provide the more special look (wide open shooting with smooth OOF areas) that I remembered from the 135L shots of my first wedding. I sold the 135L to fund the 70-200/2.8ii, which I bought right after that first wedding. I now have a 50L that I shoot with the 5D2 but it's hit and miss. If I am to shoot with confidence I need a body that focuses the 50L like a rock. 85L is completely unfamiliar terrain for me. But as portraits are my main interest, I am sure I could put that lens to good use.

Stay good,
Ralph



Aug 12, 2015 at 04:18 PM
Morgo
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3


What about another option?

Sell the 5dc, 5d2 and 50L

Buy a 5d3, 6d, 85L and sigma 50 1.4 ART. I'm not sure about the price difference but I'd imagine it can't be too far out.




Aug 13, 2015 at 05:43 AM
Jonesy
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3


That's what I use. 5d3, 6d, 50art and 85L


Aug 13, 2015 at 05:47 AM
Jonesy
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3


Good luck with the 50L focusing. I've tried every body and finally gave up and sold it and bought the sigma 50 art.


Aug 13, 2015 at 05:48 AM
rabbitmountain
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3


Actually I was confident that a 5D3 would solve that issue. I tried one in my regular camera store and it was fantastic. Well we'll see, I will try it right away and if it's not perfect then I can always see what to do. I think I will never sell my 50L because I like the images I get from it too much.


Aug 13, 2015 at 08:50 AM
rabbitmountain
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3


Is a 6D really that much better than a 5D2? It would not be sensible for me to sell my 5D2 for a 6D because most likely I'll be working towards 2x 5D3 so I'd better hang on to the 5D2 for a while and when business goes well then sell it and get a used 5D3.

Edited on Aug 13, 2015 at 11:47 AM · View previous versions



Aug 13, 2015 at 08:51 AM
OntheRez
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3


Re your reference to the 135mm f/2.0L. Even though I don't do portrait or weddings, I'd never sell my 135. It has something that few other lenses can touch. (Like isolating an incredible butterfly against a beautiful blurred flower. Also as a critical piece of my indoor athletic shooting in real dungeon like gyms.) I sure hope Canon never "upgrades" it.

Robert



Aug 13, 2015 at 10:59 AM
rabbitmountain
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3


Well actually I regret selling the 135L now. I got it for 1000, sold it for 700 and I could buy a new one now for 889. Now that I own a business (I didn't when I sold the 135L for 700) I can get my VAT back leaving only 734. All Euros. However I have yet to see myself needing it when I have 35L 50L and 85L and a 70-200/2.8mkii.


Aug 13, 2015 at 11:49 AM
jasonpatrick
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3


The 85 f/1.2 II is an amazing lens. Some thoughts though. Don't buy new. Used, these lenses are going for 1500 easy, and I've seen them as low as 1350. The Sigma 85mm f/1.4 is also no slouch. I recently sold my 85mm f/1.2 II for the Sigma, and I'm very happy with that decision.

I think that getting 1 5D3 along with an 85mm prime is the way to go. Cycle your 5d2 into your 2nd camera and retire the 5d (or keep it for a back-up).



Aug 15, 2015 at 11:34 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3


Hi Jason,
Thank you for your thoughts! It's always very useful to hear first hand experiences. For price, there is not a huge problem. The 85LII here in the Netherlands is 1795 at this moment (used to be higher). When purchased along with the 5D3, there is a Canon cash back for 250, leaving 1549. For businesses, our tax dept. returns VAT, which leaves only 1280. As there usually is no VAT on used lenses, buying used is not a good option, at least for a business.

I am particularly interested though in why you sold the 85Lii for a Sigma and why you are happy with that decision. Is it just the money saved or does the Sigma do better for your purposes (and how)?

Also, have you shot the 5D2 with your 85Lii and if so how did you think it performs in low light venues like when shooting wedding ceremonies?

Thanks!



Aug 16, 2015 at 02:23 AM
ComicDom1
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3


I have the 1D MK4 series cameras since their release. I have owned all the 1D series bodies except for the MK3 series and 2 of the S series studio bodies as well as the first 5D body. Granted there has been some changes in the size and shape of the batteries used in the 1D series when we left the MK II bodies and moved on. The menu's also changed.

I finally purchased the 5D MK 3 to go with my 1DMK4 because I am quite aware of the changes in the focusing system. The 6 frames per sec is adequate for most any experienced shooter unless you use the spray and pray system, just as the 8 frames per second was with the 1st 1D. It was the shot to shot times that was important and how quickly it tracked and focused. Another thing that important is white balance, but of course this should and can be manually adjusted for your situation.

As far as tracking is concerned, the only difference as I understand it between the 1Dx and 5D is in a color array sensing that the 1Dx uses that the 5D3 does not have.

It has not been my experience that the 1D4 struggles in low light but everyone has their own experiences. The whole point of shooting a 1D for sports purposes was its tracking ability in low light and the noise control at high ISO without the use of flash. This does not mean total darkness. So unless you have used a 1D4 in the low light situation that you actually shoot in then you really have no idea about how it behaves and have made your decision solely on what someone else has written who might have never used the camera. I will go further and say there is quite of bit written online in reviews and opinions by people who have never really extensively used a particular camera body or lens. To seriously understand the limitations or capabilities of any Camera or Lens I think it is necessary to spend more than a few hours or a day shooting with them. If you were really worried about the Canon 1D4 hunting focusing in low light you could always use an ST-E2 as an assist light to help it and your problem would be solved.

Just an FYI for the forum, from what I understand from Canon(please correct me if I am wrong), the focus system on the 5Ds and 5DR is the same as in the 5D3. The only difference is the amount of MP and (pixel size) packed on the sensor and possibly the formula's they use for in camera noise control. At least that is what Canon told me.

Moving on. I understand you have made your decision and you certainly are entitled to do that. The 85mm lenses that Canon makes are both great. The 85mm 1.8 in my opinion is a sleeper lens. What I mean is that this lens performance is outstanding and in my opinion is the best bang for the buck. As another has stated it does focus faster than the more expensive 85mm offered by Canon.

I also understand why you feel that two full frame camera bodies just fit your situations better. Let me suggest to you, that its not the full frame bodies, but it may be that you are not completely comfortable with adjusting to the 1.3x compensation you need to make for the sensor size. What that means is you might have to actually change your framing and shooting technique to get the same type of images in your viewfinder that you have been comfortable shooting over the years. Give that some thought!

One of the reasons many of us like the 1.3 crop sensor is because when it came to the 1D4 and previous 1D models we were shooting the sharpest part of the glass. Like you said glass matters. So the sharpest part of the glass is going to be in the center of it and degrade more as you get to the outer edges.

You might give that some thought too.

Here is a link to an interesting comparison and pros and cons of both

http://snapsort.com/compare/Canon-EOS-5D-Mark-III-vs-Canon_EOS-1D_Mark_IV

Just my opinions!

Jason






Aug 16, 2015 at 02:36 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3


Hi Jason!

Thank you so much for tuning in. And yes I really value your opinions, I notice you have my best interest in mind while writing and I appreciate that. I'll try to respond to the best of my abilities.

You obviously speak from experience with 1D bodies. I have owned 2 of them, each for about 2 weeks. I bought both for their AF abilities but ironically they both had serious AF issues. The 1D3 had a delicious feel in my hand and it was a pure joy to use. However, it would not get in focus shots consistently even with the centre AF point and one shot AF. Because I had read from various FM members who I respect highly, who own this body and say they got it working very well after studyiing the manual and calibrating lenses, I gave it a week of fiddling but I could not get it to work, even in good light, so I sent it back. I tried a 1Ds2 2 years later, convinced of getting a more than decent AF system. This sample had a faulty AF system too, although very different. It would focus 99% sharp with centre point but any other AF point would give inconsistent results. I'm pretty sure both bodies could have been OK after a visit to CPS but I was afraid of the hassle so I sent the 1Ds2 back too. I almost thought it was me because I could not seem to focus well with two 1D series bodies. Then I shot a portrait session with my trusted 5Dclassic + 70-200ii and I got fabulous AF results so I was convinced it wasn't me.

Then shortly after I met a guy who was shooting a 1D4 at the time and asked him if I could use it for a day. I got excellent results with the same lenses that gave me so much trouble on the 1D3 and 1Ds2. I really really liked the ergonomics of the body (almost identical to the 1D3 I had) and even though I had owned the 1D3 for just a week, it felt like coming home.

I've wanted a 1D4 ever since.

But they were out of my price range (3000 used) and I knew I didn't really need it for my business, which was 95% portrait photography at the time. I must admit that I did not try this 1D4 in low light so it's true I have no experience with that. And yes I base my idea of the 1D4 being (at least a bit) less capable in low light than a 5D3 solely on other people's judgement. But among those are some photographers that have a good deal of experience with that body.

Now as you say moving on, yes I've made up my mind on getting the 5D3+85L but I haven't ordered yet so nothing's written in stone. I must clarify that I don't think the 1D4 is a bad camera in low light at all. I really liked it for its image quality and ISO capabilities, although I was spoiled by my 5D2. I'm merely convinced that the 5D3 is at least as good and probably a little better in low light focusing. There is no question in my mind that a 1D4 can be used for a wedding and get the job done. However if you add the 5D3 silent shutter and the FF sensor, it should be the most sensible thing for me to get at least one 5D3 first.

So I will shoot a 5D3 and a 5D2 for a while. What comes after that is another thing. If I keep digging shooting 2 FF bodies for the wedding stuff and I would feel limited by the 5D2 AF, I could sell the 5D2 and get another camera. As far as I am now I think that should be a second 5D3 but your contribution has made me reconsider. When shooting the 1D3 I felt quite comfortable using the 1.3 crop format, especially on my 70-200 but also on the 16-35. However, I did not have weddings in mind at the time. I am aware that there is a versatility in using FF and 1.3 crop, but that is mainly when shooting with one body at a time and have the ability to choose from two formats according to your needs for a certain session. But at weddings I typically shoot two bodies simultaneously because at some key moments there is no time to change lenses. For instance a 50 and a 85. Or a 35 and 85. Mounting the 35 on FF and 85 on 1.3 crop makes the 85 a 110. I guess only trying that out in the real will tell me if it's beneficial or just plain complicating.

Your remark on the best part of the glass can be relevant too. I will give that some thought.

Finally, 85/1.8 or 85L. I have used the 85/1.8 at one occasion and was impressed by the AF speed. However, when it comes to image quality I liked the results from my 70-200/2.8ii better. And that lens zoom range covers the 85mm. I feel comfortable shooting a wedding with the 70-200 although it is bulky but the IQ is so good. The 85L I had on loan for 5 days (the original, not the mkII) and I noticed rightaway that its images have something very special that the 70-200 doesn't have. Kind of the same thing as shooting a 50L wide open instead of a 24-70 at 2.8. I still shoot portraits mainly and weddings whenever I can but that is really still a developing area for me. I am aware of the fact that I can put an 85L to good use for portrait photography. I mostly shoot portraits with my trusted 70-200/2.8ii (in my studio and outside) and that lens really delivers time after time. It's my most reliable lens, even on my old 5Dclassic. But I really like the touch of the 85L.

This reply went longer than I intended but I hope you will recognise some of my thinking. I would appreciate your impression and - if you care to - your reply.

Stay good,
Ralph



Aug 16, 2015 at 07:51 PM
ComicDom1
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3


Ralph, I hear and understand your thinking. I personally skipped the 1D MK3 generation of the Canon. At that time I decided at that time it was a body I wanted to pass on and I think I was correct in my decision. At that time in my life I was holding a press pass and shooting sports, events, and what ever other assignments I was given on a regular basis. Of course I shot a few weddings but it is not something I actively pursue. I also was actively shooting models and portraits at that time.

As we both know the photography world has drastically changed over the years. At least it has in the US. I always make a joke now that a professional photographer always has carries a back up camera with them. I say instead of One cell phone they carry Two !

Getting back to the subject. The 1D4 is a marvelous camera. The 1DX and 5D3 are also both marvelous cameras. As you saw from y post there is not much difference in shutter lag time between the 1D4 and the 5D3. How ever there is a difference in the 1DX as it offers ITR to assist in tracking.

Since the 1Dx is not in the mix right now the difference does not matter. Keep in mind that if and when you decide you might want to buy your second camera the price might be down enough on the 1DX where you might consider it. The pixels of the 1DX are slightlly larger than the 1D4 so you will get better light collection along with another FF camera.

I think you will find that you are going to have to fine tune both the color and the focus system on your 5D3. Even compared to the 1D4 the focus and tracking system of the 5D3 will need to be tweeked. There are some posts where a few people have published their tweeks and what they feel are the best setups for tracking and AF. For the 5D3 you might want to do that in AI servo mode or maybe some other members of this forum can help you with with the best setup for the type of work you are doing.

You do have experience with the original 5D so you understand the fabulous and rich color the Classic 5D body produced. Personally that was one of the selling points for me. The 1D4 also produces some very nice color when set up properly.

I can tell you that I had to tweek and set up the focus and tracking system for my original 1D and my 1DMKII and the 1D4 to get it work the way I wanted. Of course the Sensor changed from CCD to Cmos from the original 1D to the 1DMKII so that was an adjustment in itself. The focusing system tweeks do make all the difference in the world.

I understand you do not like to work with flash but I suggest strongly that you learn. It will made a difference in your portraits esp if you shoot outside. You will not understand that value of fill flash until you do some testing shooting the same pictures with flash and with out flash in daylight. I used to be the same way. I did not like to use flash at all. There are still many instances where I still do not like to use flash, but there are many cases where it will improve and enhance your photography. The 5D3 is setup to take advantage of the new 600 series flashes and you should experiment with them.

The 85L is a fantastic lens. There is no doubt about it, but at the risk of repeating myself the 85mm 1.8 focuses faster and unless you absolutely love the boketh the L version produces the 85 1.8 produces some nice boketh of its own. I don't always agree that newer is better either. I was lucky enough to own both a 200mm 1.8 and 300mm 2.8 non IS lenses. I sold them when I was told they would no long be serviced. I could have shot them until the electronics in them died but I was not willing to take the risk. Unfortunately this is where the Camera companies have us. Even with the camera's we shoot. Sooner or later they stop servicing the bodies and lenses we love to shoot and we can either take a risk and keep shooting them or we are forced to buy a newer model.

Like you, I have certain lenses in my bag I like to shoot. I also get in a comfort zone with certain camera bodies which makes it hard to let go of them and move on. We end up not trusting or having confidence in the new hardware and it does affect our photography.

I suspect that is where you might be now.

Jason



Aug 16, 2015 at 08:31 PM
rabbitmountain
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Using 1D & 5D together? 1D4 + 5D3


Hi Jason,

I apologise for the delay. You are right I am not very experienced with flash photography. I guess I'm lazy in that respect because I generally like the non-flash image better. But I take your advice and I will give it some more thought. I own a 430exii and a 580 exii and usually use off-camera manual flash. I'll will have a look how using flash photography more could improve my work, thanks for that.

AAMOF I am more tied up on my lens collection than on camera bodies. I would happily sell my cameras if I can get another one that better suits my needs. I may keep the 5Dclassic for sentimental reasons, as it was my first dSLR and I really enjoyed using it then and now still. My 5D2 can go any minute really. Even though I knew beforehand about the AF performance, it always kept me wanting.

When I look back, I know now that I should have bought the 5D3 in 2013 instead of the used 5D2. It was a bargain but I should have looked at the 5D3 investment differently. It could have given me 3 years of easier work and maybe I would have stepped into some areas that I am not now. Heck that's why I'm thinking of putting some of my savings towards a 5D3+85L.

Now that the 5D3 is coming towards the end of its "latest model status", I will wait another couple of months to see what the 5D4 brings or get a discount on a brand new 5D3.

I'll be back as soon as I'm there

Stay good,
Ralph



Aug 25, 2015 at 03:13 AM
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