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Archive 2015 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

retrofocus
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p.13 #1 · p.13 #1 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

Steve Spencer wrote:
I think this all goes down to how much you want a rangefinder. Personally, I may be an oddball in that I don't really like having a rangefinder (just give me a good EVF). So the M9 holds no interest for me and even the M240 is of very limited interest (as the external EVF seems to suck). I could be interested in the rumoured new Leica if it has a good EVF and especially if it a bit smaller than the M9 and M240. I would also have to be able to afford it and for me that...Show more →

Yes, it has its pros and cons. Main con for me is that I would need special viewfinder "glasses" on a Leica rangefinder body to allow wide/ultrawide angle lenses to work which I often use. Another con is that rangefinder cameras need to be calibrated/maintained to get excellent focus accuracy. Main advantage is to have best M lens-camera compatibility. Not sure if this is worth the $$$$ - I also likely stick to mirrorless, but I always challenge myself with alternative options if they offer a performance and price/quality ratio which I like. So far Sony made the best cut for me there.

Aug 11, 2015 at 02:01 PM

Goodrich
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p.13 #2 · p.13 #2 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

hiepphotog wrote:
. Overall, very positive for this lens, just like the other two WA luxes.

2? There at 3: 21, 24, and 35 in addition to the 28mm....

Aug 11, 2015 at 04:20 PM

suteetat
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p.13 #3 · p.13 #3 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

I looked very hard at M240 and in comparison to A7r, I really had no desire for it.
Granted that WA with Leica M is a problem but I find everything else to be more to my liking. I also don't really care much for rangefinder per se. I broke down and bought MM246 just because I like the idea of true monochrome camera and I use a EVF 100% of the time. Yes, the EVF kind of suck in comparison to Sony but it gets the job done and it is nice to see everything in bw right from the beginning. The LCD screen is almost useless. So using MM246 is a bit annoying but once I see the result on my computer, I rather like it.
So far I really like the result with 35/1.4 fle, 50/2 apo, 50/0.95, 90/2 apo with A7r ii. Will have to try WATE next. 21/1.4, 24/1.4 28/1.4 certainly is something that is in the back of my mind but unfortunately my wanted list is rather too long

I will have to wait and see how Kolari mod will work out especially with IBIS and if there is any effect on E-mount native lens. My understanding is that with A7r, there is really no ill effect on native lenses, is that correct?
I am considering getting housing for A7r ii when I go scuba diving. At least it will be smaller and lighter to haul than my D7100 setup but I will need it to be able to work well with Sony 16-35/4 and 90/2.8 macro. On the other hand, the Nauticam housing will allow me to use Nikonos 15mm FE with A7r ii, I wonder if the mod will make it even better but I suppose corner sharpness has never been much of an issue as using domeport UW, I never expect tact sharp picture corner to corner anyhow and often it is not all that neccessary.

Aug 11, 2015 at 05:41 PM

hiepphotog
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p.13 #4 · p.13 #4 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

Goodrich wrote:
2? There at 3: 21, 24, and 35 in addition to the 28mm....

I don't consider a 35 a WA, but sure, 3 other WA luxes then besides the 28
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suteetat wrote:
I looked very hard at M240 and in comparison to A7r, I really had no desire for it.
Granted that WA with Leica M is a problem but I find everything else to be more to my liking. I also don't really care much for rangefinder per se. I broke down and bought MM246 just because I like the idea of true monochrome camera and I use a EVF 100% of the time. Yes, the EVF kind of suck in comparison to Sony but it gets the job done and it is nice to see everything in bw right from the...Show more →

I have not seen any test with the FE 16-35 on a modded cam before so you might want to wait for that. I tested the FE 55 and you need 100%, WO, pixel-peep hard to see any degradation. On the other hand, all WA/UWA SLR film lenses should see some improvements. And it's nice to go full force into the Leica world

. Do keep us updated with your findings.

One thing to keep in mind is that the color response shifts a little after the mod. I am thinking about getting a camera profile kit from X-Rite to get the profile down for this mod. But it might be a while.

Aug 11, 2015 at 05:59 PM

Steve Spencer
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p.13 #5 · p.13 #5 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

hiepphotog wrote:
I don't consider a 35 a WA, but sure, 3 other WA luxes then besides the 28
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I have not seen any test with the FE 16-35 on a modded cam before so you might want to wait for that. I tested the FE 55 and you need 100%, WO, pixel-peep hard to see any degradation. On the other hand, all WA/UWA SLR film lenses should see some improvements. And it's nice to go full force into the Leica world

. Do keep us updated with your findings.

One thing to keep in mind is that the color response shifts a little...Show more →

If you look at Jim Kasson's blog he has a test of the FE 35mm on a modified A7 and there is very mild degradation on the modified camera. That should be a worst case scenario or close (maybe the FE 28 f/2 would be worse). It doesn't look too bad to me, but it is there. The results are near the bottom of the page here:

http://blog.kasson.com/?paged=4

Aug 11, 2015 at 06:43 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.13 #6 · p.13 #6 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

Steve Spencer wrote:
If you look at Jim Kasson's blog he has a test of the FE 35mm on a modified A7 and there is very mild degradation on the modified camera. That should be a worst case scenario or close (maybe the FE 28 f/2 would be worse). It doesn't look too bad to me, but it is there. The results are near the bottom of the page here:

http://blog.kasson.com/?paged=4

I was surprised to actually see how noticeable it was with the FE 35/2.8 on the modified camera. I do wonder if in fact WA SLR lenses would show a benefit or respond more like the FE 35.

Aug 11, 2015 at 08:36 PM

uhoh7
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p.13 #7 · p.13 #7 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

Steve Spencer wrote:
If you look at Jim Kasson's blog he has a test of the FE 35mm on a modified A7 and there is very mild degradation on the modified camera. That should be a worst case scenario or close (maybe the FE 28 f/2 would be worse). It doesn't look too bad to me, but it is there. The results are near the bottom of the page here:

http://blog.kasson.com/?paged=4

What would have been really cool is to have had the 240 in the comparison also, obviously for the M glass he tests.

Aug 11, 2015 at 08:44 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.13 #8 · p.13 #8 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

uhoh7 wrote:
What would have been really cool is to have had the 240 in the comparison also, obviously for the M glass he tests.

I thought the exact same when looking at the comparisons from the various lenses. Some of those lenses are not particularly great in the corners on a Leica anyway until stopped down quite a bit.

Aug 11, 2015 at 09:09 PM

hiepphotog
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p.13 #9 · p.13 #9 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

Tariq Gibran wrote:
I thought the exact same when looking at the comparisons from the various lenses. Some of those lenses are not particularly great in the corners on a Leica anyway until stopped down quite a bit.

You both missed that. He did compare the modded cam against his M240. It's an eye-opener: a little better on the modded cam in one case, worse in most others (though equalize around f/8). They're virtually the same with the Lux 50 ASPH.

Aug 11, 2015 at 09:29 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.13 #10 · p.13 #10 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

hiepphotog wrote:
You both missed that. He did compare the modded cam against his M240. It's an eye-opener: a little better on the modded cam in one case, worse in most others (though equalize around f/8). They're virtually the same with the Lux 50 ASPH.

Same scene with all three back to back - modded, non-modded and M240?

Aug 11, 2015 at 10:03 PM

hiepphotog
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p.13 #11 · p.13 #11 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

Tariq Gibran wrote:
Same scene with all three back to back - modded, non-modded and M240?

Similar scene, but not all three back to back, though we can easily draw conclusions:

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=11094 (last test in the series with the modded vs. M240)

Aug 11, 2015 at 10:17 PM

suteetat
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p.13 #12 · p.13 #12 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

It seems that most luxes, the difference is in the corner is much smaller than when you compare with Elmar, Elmarit type lenses, especially when stepping down.
I am a bit worry though, the difference between 35/2.8 FE is almost the reverse situation of Leica WA.
Personally though, at least comparing 28/2.8 and 35/1.4 fle, I am not concerned much about corner difference between MM246 and stocked A7r ii when stepping down. Batis is a much better choice for A7r ii for now in comparison to 24/2.8 but definitely will see how WATE is doing. This morning I took a couple of shots of WATE at 16 and 21mm at f4 and a brief look is not too bad but will try to compare it directly with MM246 later on. Will have to see if I can burrow a friend's 21/1.4 to test it as well.

Aug 11, 2015 at 10:51 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.13 #13 · p.13 #13 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

hiepphotog wrote:
Similar scene, but not all three back to back, though we can easily draw conclusions:

http://blog.kasson.com/?p=11094 (last test in the series with the modded vs. M240)

Thanks. Different lens (the WATE is already good/ decent on the unmodded camera of course) and not the wide range tested on the mod vs non-mod.

Aug 11, 2015 at 11:07 PM

hiepphotog
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p.13 #14 · p.13 #14 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

Tariq Gibran wrote:
Thanks. Different lens (the WATE is already good/ decent on the unmodded camera of course) and not the wide range tested on the mod vs non-mod.

Link to other tests is in the first paragraph

Aug 11, 2015 at 11:34 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.13 #15 · p.13 #15 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

hiepphotog wrote:
Link to other tests is in the first paragraph

I found some of them, thanks. For anyone looking:

Leica 28 Elmarit M on M240 vs Modded A7 II: The M240 is substantially superior until around F11.
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=10945

Even on the Zeiss ZM Biogon 35/2, the story is the same. The mod is bettered by the Leica M240 by a very noticeable amount until F11.
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=10993

Here is the Elmar M 24/3.8.
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=11019

Elmarit M 24:
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=11038

Super Elmar M 18/3.8:
http://blog.kasson.com/?p=11057

I had no idea the difference between the modded A7 II and the M240 was this great in the corners as shown in many of these examples (such as with the 28 and 35). The slower, wider lenses fare better.

Aug 12, 2015 at 12:00 AM

Steve Spencer
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p.13 #16 · p.13 #16 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

Tariq Gibran wrote:
I was surprised to actually see how noticeable it was with the FE 35/2.8 on the modified camera. I do wonder if in fact WA SLR lenses would show a benefit or respond more like the FE 35.

Well wide angle SLR lenses should show a benefit, but the FE 35 was designed for the thick sensor glass and it has a short exit pupil so it will be affected in a negative way by the thinner sensor glass. It isn't a dramatic effect, IMO, but it is there.

Aug 12, 2015 at 01:46 AM

Tariq Gibran
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p.13 #17 · p.13 #17 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

Steve Spencer wrote:
Well wide angle SLR lenses should show a benefit, but the FE 35 was designed for the thick sensor glass and it has a short exit pupil so it will be affected in a negative way by the thinner sensor glass. It isn't a dramatic effect, IMO, but it is there.

It seems quite dramatic around the sharpest aperture before major diffraction sets in, say around F5.6 even F8 - to my eyes at least...enough so that it would give me pause about using the mod with that lens for critical sharpness across the frame.

Aug 12, 2015 at 02:38 AM

xbarcelo
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p.13 #18 · p.13 #18 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

But wouldn't focus curvature affect the A7? He says that he focused on the center and isn't it the case that the Sony still has more field curvature than the Leica? If so, that would show on the edges, so it's not that he's equalizing the game...

Aug 12, 2015 at 04:18 AM

artur5
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p.13 #19 · p.13 #19 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

After reading the last page of this thread, a couple of questions come to my mind :
1- AFAIK there has been two different versions of the Kolari mod. The first one used a glass somehow affected by humidity in the long term. Kolari offered a free replacement for possible corroded filters. Afterwards they switched to a new glass type, much more immune to corrosion and also, if I remember correctly, they said that it was thinner than the first version. Maybe 0.7mm vs 0.9mm. ? The question is : which Kolari version of the mod are we seeing in the tests ?. The first or the second?. You'd think that 0.2mm. wouldn't make any visible difference and here springs my second doubt :
2- If we use the same lens on a Leica M240 and a A7M and the IR filter has the same thickness, in theory any difference in performance must be due to the sensor itself.
Now, according to those tests, the M240 is clearly better than a modded A7 with the same lens, same pixel count and the glass cover is quite the same thickness, isn't it ?. How do we explain then the different performances in corner sharpness ?.
I don't believe in Leica magic, so we must assume that there's something wrong : either user error on the test, either the Kolari mod on that case wasn't quite successful or the sensor of that Sony A7 wasn't perfectly aligned with the lens mount. We wouldn't know but my point is that, everything else being the same, the sharpness of a M lens on the Leica M240 vs. an A7M should be very, very close, If not, there's something amiss somewhere.

Aug 12, 2015 at 04:23 AM

suteetat
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p.13 #20 · p.13 #20 · Apparently A7rII is not playing well with Leica wides. :(

I had a chance to try WATE on both A7r ii and MM246 today.

Aug 12, 2015 at 04:41 AM

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