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Archive 2015 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

ben egbert
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p.6 #1 · p.6 #1 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

Nice tutorial. A note, the new CC does not have bicubic. It has automatic, bicubic smoother and bicubic sharper in addition to some others. But no plain old bicubic. The "constrain styles" is also missing.

Jul 27, 2015 at 11:00 AM

Zenon Char
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p.6 #2 · p.6 #2 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

I did not know that. I know that most recommend bi cubic sharper for downsizing but the presenter in the Adobe video does not recommend it so I left it on Bicubic. It has been so long since I watched it I can't remember why.

Jul 27, 2015 at 11:08 AM

Fred Miranda
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p.6 #3 · p.6 #3 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

ben egbert wrote:
Nice tutorial. A note, the new CC does not have bicubic. It has automatic, bicubic smoother and bicubic sharper in addition to some others. But no plain old bicubic. The "constrain styles" is also missing.

It does have bicubic.
It's called bicubic (smooth gradients)

So there are 3 options:

Bicubic Smoother,
Bicubic Sharper,
Bicubic (smooth gradients) ---- that is the one I use on my personal micro-detail/halo-less resize for the web action.

Jul 27, 2015 at 12:30 PM

ben egbert
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p.6 #4 · p.6 #4 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

Fred Miranda wrote:
It does have bicubic.
It's called bicubic (smooth gradients)

So there are 3 options:

Bicubic Smoother,
Bicubic Sharper,
Bicubic (smooth gradients) ---- that is the one I use on my personal micro-detail/halo-less resize for the web action.

Thanks, I assumed both smooth gradients and smoother were the same. Good to know.

I have for a while been sharpening in Lab mode with USM not smart sharpen. I also learned another trick to do half the sharpening in lab, and half in RGB with darken. This reduces halos. But that is what I use before downsizing.

After watching the videos I am going to try luminance mode which may be about the same as Lab (lightness). I am also going to work with Smart sharpen.

I have been working on web output sharpening with various USM and NIK settings as well as Topaz. So far I like a very light Nik setting best.

After watching the tutorial, I saw that bicubic sharper was as strong or stronger than smoother with a light USM or Nik. I think I prefer to add my own after downsizing.

The problem that started this post was that my Topaz web sharpen action I had used for years was broken, probably when I went to CC. Detail 3 is not working in actions, it returns nothing. I did not see this because frankly at 850 pixels, I don't see much at all. To work on this, I need to develope my actions at around 1600 pixels where I can see some change and difference between various setting.

I have a ticket at Topaz to find out why. But I may find a better solution with other methods.

Jul 27, 2015 at 12:56 PM

ben egbert
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p.6 #5 · p.6 #5 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

For Fred,

Is this the one from the software store?

"Web Presenter"

Jul 27, 2015 at 01:48 PM

ben egbert
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p.6 #6 · p.6 #6 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

Smart sharpen and 5DS-R. I have been doing a three step USM for my general sharpening for the 5DS-5. first USM 12-50 1, then 150-.3,0 and finally 150-.3 0 set to darken. It executes very fast. I rewrote these in smart sharpen and it is glacial. Also at the end, I did not see any difference.

Just a note for you, I am staying with my first method. I tried smart sharpen after viewing the videos.

Jul 27, 2015 at 04:27 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.6 #7 · p.6 #7 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

ben egbert wrote:
For Fred,

Is this the one from the software store?

"Web Presenter"

No, it's not that one although Web presenter does a good job with micro contrast.
It's a resize for the web action I use for my personal images which include a lot of settings including exposure, saturation, etc..

Jul 27, 2015 at 05:11 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.6 #8 · p.6 #8 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

I used it on most of my images including the latest ones I posted. There is detail in the resized images without the undesired halos on the edges:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1376441

Jul 27, 2015 at 05:23 PM

ben egbert
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p.6 #9 · p.6 #9 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

Fred Miranda wrote:
I used it on most of my images including the latest ones I posted. There is detail in the resized images without the undesired halos on the edges:

https://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1376441

I just thought it might be in your store and I would just buy it. I am doing ok, my real issue was that I was downsizing smoother and not sharpening because the sub action I had in my downsize action was not working. I have several now that work so its just a matter of choosing one.

Jul 27, 2015 at 07:03 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.6 #10 · p.6 #10 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

ben egbert wrote:
I just thought it might be in your store and I would just buy it. I am doing ok, my real issue was that I was downsizing smoother and not sharpening because the sub action I had in my downsize action was not working. I have several now that work so its just a matter of choosing one.

Check your pm.
Best,
Fred

Jul 27, 2015 at 07:15 PM

Zenon Char
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p.6 #11 · p.6 #11 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

Is there a reason I can't put web presenter in my cart?

Jul 27, 2015 at 10:25 PM

Zenon Char
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p.6 #12 · p.6 #12 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

ben egbert wrote:
Smart sharpen and 5DS-R. I have been doing a three step USM for my general sharpening for the 5DS-5. first USM 12-50 1, then 150-.3,0 and finally 150-.3 0 set to darken. It executes very fast. I rewrote these in smart sharpen and it is glacial. Also at the end, I did not see any difference.

Just a note for you, I am staying with my first method. I tried smart sharpen after viewing the videos.

I was pretty much involved with this since getting my first DSLR. Everyone was looking for the best way to down sample. I remember the northwest nature photographers or something like that used a 3 step USM method but resized in steps. Example - first USM 2000, next 1400 and final 900. I can't remember

You can use the RSS process with any sharpening method. I played around for hours last night trying multiple sharpening combinations with my action. It appears that edge sharpening method does kill some of the contrast between pixels. I tried your 3 USM steps, smart sharpen at 500% and so on. All the same results.

Here is my current method. I used smart sharpening at 500% no feathering back.

~original[/IMG]

When you compare to your method there is a real contrast pop. More detail in the beak, etc. But when you look closely at the water your can see how much less smooth it is compared to mine. Really brought out more noise. You can really see it at 300%

~original[/IMG]

Long ago I was aware that adding USM with a low amount and high radius added pop so I did this at the end of my process. 12 60 0. Got more pop (not as much as yours) but still kept the background smoother. I may add this to my process.

~original[/IMG]

So it all depends on what is more important and what the conditions are like. Most people look at the bird. Like I said I'm always looking for something new. I like keeping the background smooth. I added you method and will try it with different shots.

I love this stuff. Sharpening and resizing has always fascinated me. Any other suggestions to bring out pop and not add noise? Contrast did not do much for that.

Jul 28, 2015 at 09:46 AM

ben egbert
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p.6 #13 · p.6 #13 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

I think I like the first one best. The second one adds too much highlight to the beak.

Not sure who you mean when you say "you" Fred or me?

I redid my method today. I deleted the Smart sharpen because it is way too slow. I now have two actions, one at 300, .3,0 and one at 12,50,0. I can run these in lab or RGB and can apply whatever fade or layer type (normal, luminance, darken etc).

My current method is to run Haze (12,50,0) and the usm 300, .3,0 in lab, fade the last to 40% and then go to RGB and run the 300,3,0 again and set to darken. The last is applied at 100% to a 40% layer so essentially it is 40%.

This is a creative sharpening applied at 100% image size and is my starting point for output sizing and sharpening.

Downsizing for web applies some more sharpening. Printing is also sharpened during the printing process in Qimage.

I see you are using the haze step last while I use it first, I will try turning the order around. I am also using the haze filter now in ACR so maybe I should delete the USM 12,50 1 step altogether.

Jul 28, 2015 at 11:45 AM

ben egbert
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p.6 #14 · p.6 #14 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

Ok, putting Haze (12,50,0) first produces a better image IMO.

I also started looking for what is causing halos. They are really small and probably don't matter, but I wanted to find the root cause. I started with a RAW and worked all the sliders I normally use while looking at a horizon that has a faint halo at the end of the processing. Surprisingly I found a very slight one before doing any processing.

I then moved shadows to 100% and highlights to -100%. Neither did much alone, but together they do. Then I moved clarity to 100%, again an increase. Finally I used the haze feature in the ACR effects panel and it also increased it.

So there you have it, if you use these sliders to gain some DR, you will have a few halos.

Jul 28, 2015 at 12:57 PM

Zenon Char
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p.6 #15 · p.6 #15 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

I see.Sorry for late reply. I made a mistake I think. I did 3 sharpenng passes using your method.

12 50 1

150 .3 0

150 .3 0

I think I was suppoed to use onlly one of the 150 .3 0. It did cause some issues. I over sharpened at 500% but did not feather back on that first one just to compare apples tpo apples a little better. There are some artifracts around the eyes, etc and I normally would have toned it down a bit.

Jul 28, 2015 at 07:45 PM

ben egbert
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p.6 #16 · p.6 #16 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

Ok, this is a landscape processing and I would probably do something different for birds.

The object of doing two passes is that one USM is done in Lab in lightness mode which is sort of like using luminance mode, avoiding sharpening color noise. The second in RGB is done in darken which darkens halos. By using 150 each and then fading to 40% it is less than the traditional 300, 0.3,0 USM that used to be Canons reccomdndation for some of their FF cameras.

I am no expert on sharpening by a long stretch. I share what I do for comment and improvement.

But this sharpening is not really part of the original quest. That quest was for web sharpening, after the creative part was done and the image had been downsized.

Jul 28, 2015 at 08:32 PM

Fred Miranda
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p.6 #17 · p.6 #17 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

Zenon Char wrote:
Is there a reason I can't put web presenter in my cart?

There was a glitch after I updated the server. It should be working now. I'm working on Web Presenter II though. It will be an action instead of plugin.
Fred

Jul 29, 2015 at 11:51 AM

tdimler
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p.6 #18 · p.6 #18 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

Fred Miranda wrote:
With the advent of 4k monitors, 800px may not be optimal anymore. However, it seems that most photographers are still using 2-3k monitors. It's very common to see images at 1,000px for the biggest dimension now.

Going along with the above, I have recently upgraded to an iMac 5K and a late model MacBook Pro with a retina display and while the resolution and color is spectacular, it has totally disrupted my web viewing experience.

Images on the web/forums that looked splendidly sharp on my previous monitor, all look soft now. My understanding is that due to the high screen resolution, the computer (not sure if it is browser or forum related) is up-sampling the images so that they don't appear tiny, and the result is a twice the size and half the resolution.

I'd be thrilled to find a workaround for this. Any ideas?

As a secondary problem, my previous workflow for posting images on the web was to sharpen at the output size, upload to Pbase, then post and they were all perfect. Now, if I size an image to 800 px in PS, I'm looking at something really small...not big enough to even work with. I've found enough answers for why this is happing but no suggestions as to how to deal with it.

Travis

Jul 29, 2015 at 06:31 PM

arbitrage
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p.6 #19 · p.6 #19 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

tdimler wrote:
Going along with the above, I have recently upgraded to an iMac 5K and a late model MacBook Pro with a retina display and while the resolution and color is spectacular, it has totally disrupted my web viewing experience.

Images on the web/forums that looked splendidly sharp on my previous monitor, all look soft now. My understanding is that due to the high screen resolution, the computer (not sure if it is browser or forum related) is up-sampling the images so that they don't appear tiny, and the result is a twice the size and half the resolution.

I'd be...Show more →

Well PS and LR display the actual images on a pixel per pixel basis in the viewer window so yes 800 wide looks small when the rMBP is 2880 wide and the 5Kimac is 5120 wide. PS and LR use the default scaling you set in OS X for their menus and sliders but show the image pixel per pixel on the screen. I do think there are issues with these newer retina displays and viewing certain things on the web. However, I do all my processing on a 15" Retina MacBook Pro and I love how noise just disappears without NR. Unfortunately that often leads to me posting online images that show more noise than I realized and viewing them on my older 27" iMac (non-retina) I can see the noise more. Eventually most of us will have hidpi displays and then we will all be viewing equally.

Jul 29, 2015 at 08:32 PM

Zenon Char
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p.6 #20 · p.6 #20 · Display, and web sharpening questions.

Thanks everyone. I'm in a remote area and the cell tower is pretty far away. I installed a different antenna and heavy duty cable (RG11) that goes to my cell booster. I could not adjust it the last few days due to high winds. I'll get back to some of these posts later today. Going fishing.

Jul 30, 2015 at 09:46 AM

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