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Archive 2015 · 100% crop versus print size crop.

  
 
ben egbert
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · 100% crop versus print size crop.


Trying to come to grips with this problem of viewing an 88PPI monitor versus viewing a 300ppi print.

We gave gotten into the habit of using 100% crops to show image quality and sharpness. But it has a couple of fallacies. One we will almost always print close to 300PPI and we cant view the entire image on a screen at 88PPI.

I came up with this method, to use a size crop rather than a 100% crop. If you set the image resolution at 300PPI and use 10x6 inches as a crop size, you get a web size image that is realistically what you will get in print.

To test this, I made the following 10x6 crops. One at 88ppi and one at 300ppi. I would like you to analyze my logic and make comments.

Also what monitor res do you have?

The following image might be familiar to you, it is the soft edge image I have been showing and is totally unprocessed here. It is certainly soft and I have found a way to get better focus, but this image prints beautifully at 16x24 with processing and sharpening.






88ppi cropped to 10x6 inches







300ppi cropped to 10x6 inches







Full image




Jul 20, 2015 at 09:43 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · 100% crop versus print size crop.


I have a more "organic" approach. Based on looking at a lot of potential prints on the screen, I simply have a pretty good sense of how the screen version is going to work (or not) as a print. I do make test prints (kind of like old school "test strips" - remember those?) on letter size paper to check things out, but I have about 90% success rate with predicting what the print will look like by looking at the regular on-screen image. (The other 10% require a second pass at post after I make a letter size test print.)

Dan



Jul 20, 2015 at 09:48 AM
ben egbert
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · 100% crop versus print size crop.


I do that too Dan, but I was thinking of web presentations. A new way to show the IQ of a lens or camera that is more realistic than the old 100% crop. This is for gear forum usage. Heck, we can still show 100%, but then a print size for a realistic look.

When I show the above image at 100% it looks pretty bad, but when I show it at print size, not so much.



Jul 20, 2015 at 09:53 AM
artd
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · 100% crop versus print size crop.


The method I use is to examine my image on screen at 50% magnification. If I can see problems on screen at that magnification I'll typically see them in print. If I think everything looks good at that magnification then I'll probably be satisfied with the print.


Jul 20, 2015 at 09:55 AM
ben egbert
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · 100% crop versus print size crop.


artd wrote:
The method I use is to examine my image on screen at 50% magnification. If I can see problems on screen at that magnification I'll typically see them in print. If I think everything looks good at that magnification then I'll probably be satisfied with the print.


Yep, but I am proposing a replacement for the 100% crop standard we have been using for the last 15 years. Maybe my wording is poor, so can you suggest a different way to present this as a:


Proposed protocol for web presentation.



Jul 20, 2015 at 10:05 AM
AJSJones
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · 100% crop versus print size crop.


artd wrote:
The method I use is to examine my image on screen at 50% magnification. If I can see problems on screen at that magnification I'll typically see them in print. If I think everything looks good at that magnification then I'll probably be satisfied with the print.


I agree with this philosophy - not so much the specific magnification value, but developing one's own sense of the relationship between the image on one's screen and the print that comes from one's printer.

I still feel the only way for me to compare the details of the performance of lens/sensor combinations is side-by-side at 100% on screen. That's where the differences between 4 and 5µm pixels might show up, or the differences between AA filters etc. Any processing beyond that - such as scaling - prevents that.

That is not the same as trying to indicate how a print might look (paper, ink, etc), or to compare the nuances between prints one might obtain from two different PP routines - that just can't be done well/consistently on a screen



Jul 20, 2015 at 10:18 AM
ben egbert
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · 100% crop versus print size crop.


Just testing the water here. 50Mp really put this to me when I realized how much bigger it would look on screen than in print.


Jul 20, 2015 at 10:32 AM
snapsy
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · 100% crop versus print size crop.


gdanmitchell wrote:
I have a more "organic" approach. Based on looking at a lot of potential prints on the screen, I simply have a pretty good sense of how the screen version is going to work (or not) as a print. I do make test prints (kind of like old school "test strips" - remember those?) on letter size paper to check things out, but I have about 90% success rate with predicting what the print will look like by looking at the regular on-screen image. (The other 10% require a second pass at post after I make a letter size test
...Show more

So the solution is easy - invite Dan to your house to review all your photos on your computer screen

You should set the on-screen magnification equal to the PPI ratio between your screen and print. For example, for your setup you have a 88 ppi monitor and want a 300ppi print - that's about 30%, so zoom to 1:3 or 30%. There's an easy way to do this if you're using Photoshop - do a one-time configuration setting to tell PS what your monitor's PPI is in Edit -> Preferences -> Units & Rulers, "Screen Resolution" - then you can preview any image for print by going to View -> PrintSize. Just make sure the image dimensions or PPI are set appropriately in Image -> Image Size.

Btw, when calculating your screen's PPI, be sure to use the horizontal measurement of the display area rather than the spec'd screen size, which is the diagonal.



Jul 20, 2015 at 10:35 AM
AJSJones
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · 100% crop versus print size crop.


Another way might be to move further away from the monitor by the amount that makes those ~100 ppi from X inches viewing distance look like 300 ppi on the print from "standard" viewing distance etc.


Jul 20, 2015 at 10:46 AM
ben egbert
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · 100% crop versus print size crop.


Actually if you have the PPI set in ACR at 300 PPI and do view>print size, it works fine. But if you view 100% you always get 100%.

I have no problem at home on my own monitor. My problem is with what I show in a web discussion of edge sharpness.

100% is very useful however. It makes fine cloning easier and it is still a good way to see image quality. I would never have seen the soft edge issue with my 5d3. And now that I have seen it, I have found a solution.

But as you know, edges and corners will still appear soft at 100% on a 50MP camera. Softer than at 22mp. So we all need a way to judge what is acceptable versus what is perfect.



Jul 20, 2015 at 10:53 AM
snapsy
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · 100% crop versus print size crop.


ben egbert wrote:
Actually if you have the PPI set in ACR at 300 PPI and do view>print size, it works fine. But if you view 100% you always get 100%.

I have no problem at home on my own monitor. My problem is with what I show in a web discussion of edge sharpness.


With everyone having different resolution screens I don't think you'll be able to solve this problem with extreme precision. Best maybe to just assume around 85 ppi or thereabouts for web presentation and resize the image accordingly.



Jul 20, 2015 at 10:57 AM
ben egbert
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · 100% crop versus print size crop.


snapsy wrote:
So the solution is easy - invite Dan to your house to review all your photos on your computer screen

You should set the on-screen magnification equal to the PPI ratio between your screen and print. For example, for your setup you have a 88 ppi monitor and want a 300ppi print - that's about 30%, so zoom to 1:3 or 30%. There's an easy way to do this if you're using Photoshop - do a one-time configuration setting to tell PS what your monitor's PPI is in Edit -> Preferences -> Units & Rulers, "Screen Resolution" - then you
...Show more

Heck, I need to invite Dan to help me focus. or any other human being with normal vision.

The way I measured 88PPI which is rough, is to measure the visible screen with a tape and divide by 1920.




Jul 20, 2015 at 10:57 AM
dhphoto
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · 100% crop versus print size crop.


Presumably none of this really takes into account the softening effect of the paper and the ink-jet nozzles, plus the alterations caused by the printer driver converting the data?


Jul 20, 2015 at 10:59 AM
ben egbert
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · 100% crop versus print size crop.


snapsy wrote:
With everyone having different resolution screens I don't think you'll be able to solve this problem with extreme precision. Best maybe to just assume around 85 ppi or thereabouts for web presentation and resize the image accordingly.


Yes, and why I asked what screen res people have. I am thinking I would like more. My monitor is about 8 years old. What are the new 4k monitors at? And people with tiny 4K laptops much have very high PPI.



Jul 20, 2015 at 11:00 AM
ben egbert
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · 100% crop versus print size crop.


dhphoto wrote:
Presumably none of this really takes into account the softening effect of the paper and the ink-jet nozzles, plus the alterations caused by the printer driver converting the data?


But it is an order of magnitude thing and makes such things as printing softness and actual screen PPI sort of irrelevant.

My basic philosophy is that 100% crops in web discussions by themselves are becoming irrelevant as well.



Jul 20, 2015 at 11:01 AM
snapsy
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · 100% crop versus print size crop.


ben egbert wrote:
But it is an order of magnitude thing and makes such things as printing softness and actual screen PPI sort of irrelevant.

My basic philosophy is that 100% crops in web discussions by themselves are becoming irrelevant as well.


But at least with 100% crops people know what the reference is and can adjust their viewing size for their particular setup accordingly. I have two desktop monitors, 109 ppi and 183 ppi.



Jul 20, 2015 at 11:11 AM
dhphoto
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · 100% crop versus print size crop.


ben egbert wrote:
But it is an order of magnitude thing and makes such things as printing softness and actual screen PPI sort of irrelevant.

My basic philosophy is that 100% crops in web discussions by themselves are becoming irrelevant as well.


Good, no danger of you over-thinking all of this then Ben



Jul 20, 2015 at 11:27 AM
ben egbert
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · 100% crop versus print size crop.


dhphoto wrote:
Good, no danger of you over-thinking all of this then Ben


Me overthink something after 40+ years as a mechanical designer?



Jul 20, 2015 at 11:34 AM
Camperjim
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · 100% crop versus print size crop.


Maybe I am off base, but does this approach have any relationship to sharpening?

I have always been puzzled about sharpening, downsizing and viewing on different monitors.

If I follow my usual workflow including sharpening, downsize, and view on my monitor, images look acceptably sharp to me. Others view them on the presentation forums and often comment that my images look soft. I think this has to do with the fact that my monitor is fairly small and most photographers use much larger monitors. In any case I have to oversharpen by my eye for others to see appropriate sharpness. When I print, I use a high level of sharpening. The printing process and dither seem to kill the oversharpened appearance. How does selecting a magnification or downsizing, alter the sharpness and what view is best to use when adjusting sharpness?



Jul 20, 2015 at 11:56 AM
ben egbert
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · 100% crop versus print size crop.


Camperjim wrote:
Maybe I am off base, but does this approach have any relationship to sharpening?

I have always been puzzled about sharpening, downsizing and viewing on different monitors.

If I follow my usual workflow including sharpening, downsize, and view on my monitor, images look acceptably sharp to me. Others view them on the presentation forums and often comment that my images look soft. I think this has to do with the fact that my monitor is fairly small and most photographers use much larger monitors. In any case I have to oversharpen by my eye for others to see appropriate sharpness.
...Show more

Good question Jim. Downsizing makes and image appear sharper. It seems to me that viewing and giver image on a monitor with a small number PPI, 88 versus 180 for example will make an image appear softer.

I use a large monitor with low PPI, I think a lot of folks are travelers who use high end laptops with much higher PPI. I think the PPI is more important than the monitor dimensions.




Jul 20, 2015 at 12:02 PM
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