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Archive 2015 · Canon AF switching instructions

  
 
Zenon Char
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Canon AF switching instructions


I mentioned this about 6 months ago and this did got well for me but I'm still not satisfied with Canons instructions. This can apply to any camera that has cases and parameters.

From the 7D2 manual

~original[/IMG]

The key phrase the camera switches it's focus to neighbouring AF points/. My understanding is the surrounding AF points around the centre point in expanded are assist AF points. If you read Canons documentation they say "assist as well. In AI Servo and either expansion mode I never see anything switch. Ever. You can't even see any outer points lit up in DPP later. All I see is the centre point illuminated. Perhaps they just assist faster. If so I wish Canon would have worded it that way.

From the AF PDF download.

~original[/IMG]

Here Canon says not available in Single in cases 5 and 6. No mention of expanded which in my opinion is just an extension of Single.

~original[/IMG]

It states it is available in both expansion modes. Case 6 says the same thing. Yet in Case 5 TS and Accel/Decel parameters are the same as Case 1. The only thing that changes in Case 5 is AF switching. Again I have never seen anything switching in either expansion mode.

~original[/IMG]

Assist and Switching mean two different things to me. This is the only part of that entire manual that I have always questioned. Even the Canon PDF AF guide. I keep asking in case someone has found the answer on other forums but no answer yet. Before I get a hard time I'd like someone to tell me they have actually seen the AF points switching when in either expansion modes when in cases 5 and 6. If it assists faster please refer me to that documentation. I'm just looking for the answer.




Jul 10, 2015 at 12:17 PM
ggreene
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Canon AF switching instructions


I think what they mean is that the AF assist points will switch quicker depending on subject movement. My interpretation is that they don't mean the main AF point will move.


Jul 10, 2015 at 12:41 PM
Sy Sez
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Canon AF switching instructions


There's no reason why "Assist", & "Switch" can't be mutually compatible.

Like a Pilot, & Co-Pilot:--- If for some reason the Pilot is unable to perform a required task, the responsibility is "Switched" ( As in "transferred") to "his" Assistant --the Co-pilot. The Co-pilot performs the function, & has therefore "Assisted" the Pilot.



Jul 10, 2015 at 12:59 PM
uz2work
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Canon AF switching instructions


When you are using focus point expansion to surrounding points and when the AF actually does switch to using one of those surrounding points when you are in servo mode, only the initial focus point will light up in the viewfinder even if it was one of the surrounding points that was actually used for focusing. Similarly, if you check the focus point in DPP or other utility, only the initial point will show and not necessarily the point that was actually used to take the picture.

Also note that the behavior of the surrounding points with focus point expansion is differs depending on whether you are using servo mode or one-shot mode. In one-shot mode, multiple focus points can simultaneously "assist", in the truest sense of the word, the selected point in achieving focus. In servo mode, only one point at a time is being used, and that point is the one that the camera thinks is focusing on the intended subject.

Edited on Jul 10, 2015 at 01:30 PM · View previous versions



Jul 10, 2015 at 01:24 PM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Canon AF switching instructions


I have always thought they may assist faster but if so I think Canon should have worded it that way.

I just got off the phone with Canon support. They told me it is impossible for the AF points to switch in expanded. I asked why is it included in the instructions. They said because the camera will still AF when in expanded. I replied it will AF in Single point as well when in cases 5 and 6. My camera does not shut down when I try it. Their answer was you will have to experiment. I asked if they could further research it and they told me no. They won't change the manual. Can't say I don't blame them.

I concluded months ago that if I'm going to shoot in 5 and 6 I when using zone. Even if they assist faster you pretty much have to track a moving object with the same precision as when in the other cases. Centre point still has to be the primary that acquires focus first. It may react a little faster if the centre point loses contrast, etc. This is of course if it does assist faster.

If AF switching goes from 0 to 1 in both Cases 5 and 6 then it just makes sense to me to use zone to me. Not a big deal. It just came up again somewhere else and I was wondering if there were any updates or anyone had gotten more information.

Thanks for the replies.



Jul 10, 2015 at 01:25 PM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Canon AF switching instructions


uz2work wrote:
When you are using focus point expansion to surrounding points and when the AF actually does switch to using one of those surrounding points when you are in servo mode, only the initial focus point will light up in the viewfinder even if it was one of the surrounding points that was actually used for focusing. Similarly, if you check the focus point in DPP or other utility, only the initial point will show and not necessarily the point that was actually used to take the picture.

Also note that the behavior of the surrounding points with focus point expansion
...Show more

I'm not sure it switches. The centre point is always illuminated so I still view it as assisting. The assist points do switch amongst themselves when the centre needs help but the centre is always primary. It is very possible they react faster to assisting the centre point.



Jul 10, 2015 at 01:31 PM
uz2work
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Canon AF switching instructions


Zenon Char wrote:


I just got off the phone with Canon support. They told me it is impossible for the AF points to switch in expanded. I asked why is it included in the instructions. They said because the camera will still AF when in expanded. I replied it will AF in Single point as well when in cases 5 and 6. My camera does not shut down when I try it. Their answer was you will have to experiment. I asked if they could further research it and they told me no. They won't change the manual. Can't say
...Show more

That is absolutely incorrect. Even though only the initial point is illuminated in the viewfinder with focus point expansion (in servo mode), the focus point actually used can, in fact, switch to any of the other points among those in the expanded array.

Canon support is, unfortunately, not to be counted on for this kind of information. Talking to them only insures that you are talking to someone who is likely getting information from an on-screen data base, and he/she could well be interpreting that information incorrectly. In all likelihood, you are not talking to someone with expertise as a photographer or someone who has actual hands-on experience or knowledge about the 7D Mark II (or other equipment that you are asking about).




Jul 10, 2015 at 01:35 PM
uz2work
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Canon AF switching instructions


Zenon Char wrote:
I'm not sure it switches. The centre point is always illuminated so I still view it as assisting. The assist points do switch amongst themselves when the centre needs help but the centre is always primary. It is very possible they react faster to assisting the centre point.


Even though only the initial point is illuminated, I am absolutely 100% certain that the focus point does, in fact, switch with focus point expansion in servo mode. Again, as I said above, this behavior is different in servo and one-shot modes. In one-shot mode, the purpose of the surrounding points is truly to "assist". In servo mode, the focus point switches, and that is exactly what it says in the manual. If you are careful to make sure that you are reading the section about servo mode, and not the one about one-shot mode, you will see that this is the case.




Jul 10, 2015 at 01:39 PM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Canon AF switching instructions


Do they switch or assist? Are you are saying they switch from the centre point. At some point the centre is not active at all? I've never seen this in DPP. I have in one shot seen an assist point activated but the centre point is always illuminated as well.

I was hoping to get the first person who I knew would only read the manual transfer me to the next level but that did not happen.




Jul 10, 2015 at 01:52 PM
uz2work
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Canon AF switching instructions


Zenon Char wrote:
Do they switch or assist? Are you are saying they switch from the centre point. At some point the centre is not active at all? I've never seen this in DPP. I have in one shot seen an assist point activated but the centre point is always illuminated as well.

I was hoping to get the first person who I knew would only read the manual transfer me to the next level but that did not happen.



From the "EOS 7D Mark II AF-Setting Guide"--

"[AF point expansion] is an [AF area selection
mode] that is best selected when shooting
sports. Using this setting shifts the focus point
used from a manually selected AF point, to an
adjacent (up, down, l e f t , and right, or
surrounding) AF point, to aid focus tracking."


I emphasize the words "shifts the focus point" from the ...manually selected AF point to an adjacent...AF point".

The full AF Setting Guide can be downloaded here.

http://www.brochures.canon-europe.com/getFile.php?productid=9090

Again, this is for servo mode. Also, again, when the focus point does shift to an adjacent point, that shift does not show in the viewfinder. Nor does it show in DPP.




Jul 10, 2015 at 02:01 PM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Canon AF switching instructions


More reading. Well it seems assist may not have been the best word to use. I always thought assist would help the centre point if the contrast, etc was poor and the centre point would lose it. By what I'm reading it appears that the assist points in expansion just like in zone work to keep a target that changes direction quickly in focus.

The obvious difference in expansion you get to select a specific AF point. You still need to acquire focus with the centre point first. If a subject moves quickly an outer point would assist in keep in focus even if it drops the centre point. Zone you can move the point around so it starts AF where you want it to start but just focuses on the closest subject.

So based on what I'm reading and what you are saying basically expansion does nothing for you shooting static objects in One Shot or AI Servo.



Jul 10, 2015 at 02:38 PM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Canon AF switching instructions


uz2work wrote:
From the "EOS 7D Mark II AF-Setting Guide"--

"[AF point expansion] is an [AF area selection
mode] that is best selected when shooting
sports. Using this setting shifts the focus point
used from a manually selected AF point, to an
adjacent (up, down, l e f t , and right, or
surrounding) AF point, to aid focus tracking."

I emphasize the words "shifts the focus point" from the ...manually selected AF point to an adjacent...AF point".

The full AF Setting Guide can be downloaded here.

http://www.brochures.canon-europe.com/getFile.php?productid=9090

Again, this is for servo mode. Also, again, when the focus point does shift to an adjacent point, that shift does
...Show more

I have that guide. I'm aware we are talking about AI Servo an that you can't see it in the screen or in DPP when in AI Servo.



Jul 10, 2015 at 02:41 PM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Canon AF switching instructions


Saying expansion does nothing for you shooting static objects in One Shot or AI Servo is probably not the best observation. It is better suited for moving objects that change direction quickly.

Still seems a little odd. The assist points are pretty close together. Many say to use 4 point but if you are shooting hockey game or a faster smaller bird you really need to keep up about as fast as you would using single point. 8 gives you more room to work with Once initial focus is achieved the extra points would be easier to work with as they are keep the initial focus lock in tact.

I'm pretty good with tracking steady birds so I usually use single point. Case 2 TS -2 helps keep then in focus if I'm off a bit. I don't shoot a lot of sports so I don't have as much experience. I did go birding a few weeks ago and shot in cases 1, 2, 5 and 6 in single, expansion and zone. Had great success. They were fast but steady so it was pretty easy. This will help when next time I get into sports like a hockey game.

I want to work on shooting smaller, more erratic birds so this will help. Big ones are pretty easy.

Thanks again.



Jul 10, 2015 at 03:00 PM
Ian.Dobinson
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Canon AF switching instructions


zenon I think your reading too much into the wording . when all said and done the system works very well .

not a 7D2 user but I do have the 5D3 (similar) system .

ive used it to shoot both fast bikes (moto GP ) and fast cars - WEC Leman prototypes (not far short of F1 speeds )
Ive used both the Big block zone mode and single point with expansion (both types of expansion you detailed above)
the difference I found was that the zone would lock on the first af point it could get with the bias towards the closer object . . while the Single point with assist would lock the middle point and then would try to keep that object locked on even when the middle point wasnt pointed at the intended target .

I got more keepers with single expanded than I did with zone .

as for the cases . I tried most of them and found standard Case 1 worked well enough (for jus about all I ever shot) for me not to have to worry about messing around with them



Jul 10, 2015 at 03:11 PM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Canon AF switching instructions


Well instructions are there for a reason and I know the system works well. I have own the 5D3 as well and got it a month after it was released. I agree with case 1 which my 5D3 has been left on since day 1. My preference for birding with my old 7D was similar to case 2 (in the 7D2) with the TS set to -2. I just happened to set it like that by chance and shot like that for 5 years. I never liked zone with my 7D.

Actually I'm not sure how many times on other sites I suggest people step back and go to case 1 when struggling. I can provide links.

I was just shooting with multiple cases and zones and AF modes out of boredom and and I wanted to see what it could do. I'm not struggling. I think the case numbers can be overused just because they are there. Each zone and AF combo was like shooting fish in a barrel, for those conditions, which proved to me that case 1 is the base and does most of the work for you. The others are tweaks to optimize as the situation requires. I said that 6 months ago as well Rudy says it in the first minute.



I've never liked the way Canon explained Cases 5 and 6 and that is the only part of any manual I have questioned. I like to understand how something works. Canon has had typos in the past. Sometimes you have several people working on something and things get missed.

I knew the assist points activated when required but was not aware the centre point would switch off, as explained to me. I know it sounds strange but that will be important to me when I get into more challenging photography.





Jul 10, 2015 at 03:41 PM
uz2work
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Canon AF switching instructions


Zenon Char wrote:
So based on what I'm reading and what you are saying basically expansion does nothing for you shooting static objects in One Shot or AI Servo.


I think that a major factor that affects how successful one is going to be with using an AF system is evaluating each situation individually and making good decisions regarding which focus point array is most appropriate for each individual situation. So, for example, if a static subject is filling most of the frame and if that subject is covering all or most of the expanded focus points, I might want to use use focus point expansion for that static subject. Or, if I think that there is a good possibility that the "static" subject might not remain static, I might still want want to use focus point expansion to give me a better chance of tracking the subject when it does start moving. On the other hand, if the static subject is surrounded by a background that could easily confuse the AF system and make it think that the background was the intended subject, that is when I would want to use a single focus point or, perhaps, spot focus.

Thus, I would choose not to have a hard and fast rule about which focus point array I should choose with a static subject.




Jul 10, 2015 at 05:59 PM
Zenon Char
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Canon AF switching instructions


Shooting weddings I have been on single point pretty much most of time using the 5D3. Not a lot of fast movement I could not keep up to. Selecting correct array filling the frame vs more background sounds right.

I had always wondered if that was a typo by Canon because although they do the same thing expansion and zone are very different. Poorly explained IMO.

Thanks for your help.



Jul 11, 2015 at 06:43 AM





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