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Archive 2015 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties

  
 
mrhoni
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties


Anyone have NEC PA272W or PA272W wide gamut monitor with spectra view and the xrite calibration sensor AND use Bay Photo? What white point, intensity and contrast ratio are you using?

If yes, I'm going through my calibration again. Prints from Bay come darker than I'm expecting. Metal prints are slightly darker than paper prints.

I have new evaluation prints and just calibrated at 5000k, 5500k and 6000K each with luminance at 50, 55, 60 and 65 so I can flip between each setup to see what matches the prints best. I have been using 5000k at 55 luminance. Another photographer was surprised I had luminance that low.



Jul 09, 2015 at 01:36 PM
hugowolf
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties


Well it really depends on the ambient light in your editing environment and the light in your viewing environment. With similar equipment, I use D65 and 140 cd/m² and have no problems with dark prints – although I print and don’t use Bay Photo.

How does a standard test image look with your set up?

View an unedited standard test image with your set up, and get Bay to print small one (Say 8” x 10”) and compare them:

http://www.outbackphoto.com/printinginsights/pi049/essay.html

http://www.digitaldog.net/tips/

or one of the many linked by Keith Cooper:
http://www.northlight-images.co.uk/article_pages/test_images.html

Unless you are working in a cave by candle light, 50-65 cd/m², is way too low. (If that is in cd/m², you do not mention units).

Brian A



Jul 09, 2015 at 08:32 PM
mrhoni
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties


After playing with different calibration settings today. I settled on 6000k white point andI really am down at 50cd. I'm going to call NEC as maybe it's possible something is wrong with my monitor.

I have evaluation prints of a couple test images, like the one on Keith Cooper's page with the babies at the bottom of the image.

I'm looking at the prints with my large window behind me shining its filtered light, not direct, onto the print as well as the lighting in the room, which I think are daylight and possibly 150w of light from the lamp. The prints just look dark.



Jul 09, 2015 at 08:42 PM
hugowolf
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties


Then maybe it is a profile or profile conversion problem?

Are you using Bay's profiles for soft profing?

Brian A



Jul 09, 2015 at 08:51 PM
hugowolf
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties


BTW, for D65 and 140 cd/m2, I have huge north facing windows in my studio, and edit only during daylight hours. I play on the web after dark.

Brian A



Jul 09, 2015 at 08:53 PM
mrhoni
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties


hugowolf wrote:
Then maybe it is a profile or profile conversion problem?

Are you using Bay's profiles for soft profing?

Brian A


Yes, using their profile and setting Proof viewing on in Photoshop.




Jul 09, 2015 at 09:07 PM
hugowolf
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties


If the evaluation images printed by them are too dark, using the image's embeded profile, then it would look like Bay's problem.

Brian A



Jul 09, 2015 at 09:58 PM
howardm4
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties


I have a PA272 and have a hard time believing that a luminance setting of 50 is workable.

I have mine set to 95 cd/m2



Jul 10, 2015 at 08:50 AM
mrhoni
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties


Well this might be user error. I've been playing with different calibration settings and I seem to be settling in around 70cd.

What I ended up doing is closed the window and turn on the lights in the room I usually have on when I'm working.

My concern is that prints ordered from Bay I expect to match my monitor and will be bright for the client as long as the prints are displayed where there is good light, otherwise they will look dark. Is this something to worry about and so should turn my monitor luminance down to allow me edit my images so that they are brighter & print brighter since I don't expect clients to have great light where they place their prints.

Thoughts?



Jul 10, 2015 at 08:18 PM
dgdg
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties


Here's what X-rite suggested I do with their settings for monitor calibration.
With AdoramaPix, my prints match brightness and color.


I would recommend that you not use the measurement of ambient light feature, as this is very possibly causing you to adjust your monitor to be too bright. And a very common condition that will result will be prints that are "too dark".

Here's our recommended method to profile your monitor with the i1DisplayPRO.
Connect your device to a rear USB port, if this is a desktop computer.

In i1Profiler software, please choose the Advanced workflow.

Click on Display Profiling.
Choose D65 and 120 cd/m2, contrast Native. Uncheck Flare Correct and Ambient Light Smart Control options.

Leave the Profile Settings as default.
In Measurement, please uncheck Automatic Display Control (ADC) and choose Adjust brightness, contrast and RGB manually. Then when the software asks you what options you do have to adjust, only select brightness. This will mean you will be manually adjusting the monitor's brightness, but the software will take care of everything else in the creation of the profile.

At the end of the measurements, click the right hand arrow to go to the ICC profile stage. Give the profile a unique name, set your reminder to either every 4 weeks or disable it. Do not enable Ambient Light measurement at that point.

I believe that this should give you a correct result.



Jul 10, 2015 at 09:09 PM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties


Please do not leave the Profile Settings at their default. The default is to make a v4 profile and those can often cause trouble. Set it to use v2 ICC profiles instead. This is a constant problem with every aspect of X-Rite's profiling softwares. They should know better and should change the defaults, but they don't.


Jul 10, 2015 at 09:20 PM
mrhoni
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties


The calibration device with my monitor is OEMd to NEC and works with their SpectraView II software. The settings are different than what you showed.

To be honest, 120cd seems much too bright as compared to the print

Still thank you for your comments.



Jul 10, 2015 at 09:26 PM
Mirek Elsner
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties


mrhoni wrote:
I have evaluation prints of a couple test images, like the one on Keith Cooper's page with the babies at the bottom of the image.

I'm looking at the prints with my large window behind me shining its filtered light, not direct, onto the print as well as the lighting in the room, which I think are daylight and possibly 150w of light from the lamp. The prints just look dark.


If you have printouts of the evaluation prints and you did not manipulated them before and they are dark, then the problem is with the printer, not your monitor.



Jul 10, 2015 at 10:32 PM
docholliday
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties


I have never calibrated to 120cd/m2...for printing, there's quite a few recommendations to use 80cd/m2. I personally calibrate to 80cd/m2 and use 5850K as the color temperature on a 10-bit display.

I've sent files to labs, print myself on a wide-format (44"), and also have images that go for press (CMYK, 4-color). Using these calibration settings, I've had everything from small C-prints to posters to press ads match perfectly.



Jul 11, 2015 at 10:11 AM
hugowolf
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties


docholliday wrote:
I have never calibrated to 120cd/m2...for printing, there's quite a few recommendations to use 80cd/m2. I personally calibrate to 80cd/m2 and use 5850K as the color temperature on a 10-bit display.

I've sent files to labs, print myself on a wide-format (44"), and also have images that go for press (CMYK, 4-color). Using these calibration settings, I've had everything from small C-prints to posters to press ads match perfectly.


You cannot generalize the luminance level, it is environmentally dependent. 80 cd/m² is probably fine for relatively dim ambient light editing conditions, somewhere between 100-120 cd/m² for normal lighting, and 140-160 cd/m² for bright conditions. I use 140 cd/m² with the large north facing windows in my studio.

Same goes for the illuminant settings. Illuminant A (2850 K) is fine under standard tungsten ('soft white') lighting, but way too warm for most people. Even D50 looks too warm for most. With northern daylight, D65 works for me.

There is no one correct setting for everyone.

I cannot believe that 55 cd/m² would work for anyone outside of a cave using candle light.

Brian A




Jul 11, 2015 at 07:01 PM
dgdg
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties


Peter Figen wrote:
Please do not leave the Profile Settings at their default. The default is to make a v4 profile and those can often cause trouble. Set it to use v2 ICC profiles instead. This is a constant problem with every aspect of X-Rite's profiling softwares. They should know better and should change the defaults, but they don't.


I have heard this experienced advice before.
I initially had trouble with my x-rite and changed to v2. Didn't see much difference. Then contacted X-rite.
I think I am fortunate not to have a known issue using the default. Prints so far appear to match my monitor output very well. That doesn't mean I should be using V4 though....

If V4 profile were causing me an issue, what would I notice?




Jul 11, 2015 at 08:35 PM
hugowolf
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties


dgdg wrote:
... If V4 profile were causing me an issue, what would I notice?



In most cases apps either work with V4 profiles or don’t work at all with them. For example the 3D gamut viewer at ICCView.de simply will not accept them. In a small number of cases there have been reports of color casts, and other problems, but it is often difficult to pin it down to V4 profiles solely, since switching to V2 means switching to another profile, so it may not be the version, but something else in the profile.

There were cases of V4 profiles from Canson causing very light blue/gray in the borders of prints, but only on the Mac OS. The same V4 profiles didn’t cause problems running under Windows.

I don’t know of any software that currently makes use of the extended utility of V4 for paper/printer/ink profiles, so you are getting nothing more out of them than you would from V2, and V2 works and V4 sometimes causes problems. In short you gain nothing from V4 until there is more support for them, and you risk problems.

Since V2 color space profiles don’t support lookup tables, they are simple matrix based profiles, then conversions from one color space to another are always done calorimetrically. For example, a conversion of an image from ProPhotoRGB to sRGB for web viewing, would in Photoshop always be done calorimetrically, even if you select perceptual; there isn’t enough information to do otherwise.

I haven’t checked Photoshop to see if it makes use of V4 so that perceptual rendering is done for working space conversions, but last time I looked the ICC had released a V4 sRGB profile, but I don’t think anyone has released a V4 ProPhotoRGB profile. Adobe may have a released a V4 AdobeRGB, but I haven’t checked their profile page recently.

[And just because a space profile is V4, doesn’t mean it contains the two perceptual LUTs. It is only an option in V4.]

Brian A





Jul 12, 2015 at 12:23 PM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties


I can still build v2 LUT based monitor profiles in Color Navigator and in i1Profiler, which generally provide more accurate but much larger profiles for you screen. And v2 output profiles have always supported LUT based conversions and multiple rendering intents. I think the advantage in a v4 is in the LUT based working space profiles where Perceptual rendering intent is supported, although in preliminary efforts to try out the v4 sRGB profile from color.org, I could not get it to work properly.

The bottom line is that there are still quite a few apps that don't seem to like v4 profiles, and if you're having unexplained problems, it's one of the first things to check.



Jul 12, 2015 at 08:33 PM
Alan321
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties


I don't like soft-proofing photos on my monitor. Instead, I have mine set at about 140Cd/2 for routine editing and then I create a virtual copy in Lr for the photos that I want to print. I edit the virtual copies with a different screen profile that uses a different brightness more appropriate for the print viewing environment. e.g. About 90Cd/2 for a large-ish room with 4x32W fluoros (daylight corrected). Because I'm using the screen at the print-viewing brightness I don't have to switch between editing and proofing views.

Prints can only look right at one viewing brightness. If you view the print in significantly brighter lighting then it will seem to have too little contrast and the blacks won't be dark enough. If you view it in significantly darker lighting then it will seem to have no shadow details and also be too dark overall.

The other thing is to ensure that your printing profile has the appropriate level of contrast to suit the printer paper/ink combination. That will force you to brighten the shadows in order to reveal shadow detail. Otherwise you'll be looking at a blacker black on-screen than you can get on-print, and the prints will lose the darker shadow details.

- Alan



Jul 16, 2015 at 09:41 AM
phil hawkins
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · NEC PA272W calibrated for Bay Photo having difficulties


Wow, mine are darker too. Even after calibration with an i1 Display Pro from Xrite.


Aug 09, 2015 at 02:14 PM
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