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Archive 2015 · pros/cons of 4k display vs color accurate NEC display

  
 
silvermesa1
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · pros/cons of 4k display vs color accurate NEC display


Just got back into photography two years ago and for the first year I would read threads about praises for color accurate monitors such as the NEC PA271 and now 272 models. In the last year, 4 and 5k monitors have become available,and they are now talked about favorably and the Nec versions stated above have become more silent on photo forums. Visually and from a practical use stand point what is the big difference? Is one more suitable for portrait photography vs other types of photography.

I just purchased a mid 2014 macbook pro retina 15", 2.5ghz, 512ssd,750M yesterday and plan to pair an external monitor in the 24-27" range with it.

Thank You!




Jun 26, 2015 at 01:26 PM
Yorg
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · pros/cons of 4k display vs color accurate NEC display


I have a vp2772 viewsonic for colour accurate work. I just received a book I sent to be printed at Blurb.
I calibrate it with an xrite.
I was astonished that I could not see any real difference between the book on my table and what I was seeing on my screen - except for a small contrast difference that I am sure I can correct, but the colour....just great.
It is 2400 or something by whatever pixels, but not 4k, and at 27inch I find text almost too small, and I can't see any pixels with my nose not so far from it.
Soo....buy a colour calibration device with the saved cash and don't waste your money on 4k if 27inch is big enough.



Jun 27, 2015 at 07:51 AM
Alan321
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · pros/cons of 4k display vs color accurate NEC display


4k cons:
- mostly what you've already encountered with your retina screen. The high pixel density makes photos look smaller and sharper but most programs don't give us good, independent control of visual elements such as pictures, text, icons, scroll bars, tool bars, etc.
- most don't have wide gamut
- most or all don't have in-built high-bit processor that the NECs do
- up-market graphics card required to handle the pixel count, the dual screen processing (two halves, left and right), the need for better drivers and perhaps a need for better ports such as display port.
- a graphics card may not support your 4k screen plus your present screen.

4k pros:
- sharper looking photos.
- smaller looking photos, closer to print size.
- no visible gaps between pixels. This lets you concentrate on the pixels rather than the fly wire screen and provides a better perception of image sharpness.
- can have wide gamut if you shop around.
- you can see more of the picture without using the equivalent of a cinema screen.
- easier to take it all in for a given pixel size because of the smaller angle of view.
- less chance of colour shift caused by angle of view if the monitor is physically smaller, even without uniformity control - but uniformity control is better still.
- high-ppi screens withstand the magnifying effect of reading glasses better than low-ppi screens do. sooner or later you'll appreciate this unless you die young.

For me the pixel density of the NEC screens is not uncommon in down-market screens but too low. i prefer at lease 130 ppi and preferably 180ppi or more. However, you can have too many ppi, in which case you cannot physically see some of the finer details within the image. A 24" 4k screen offers 180ppi. it looks great but some screen elements are hard to manage in some software - especially if they use bit-mapped fonts instead of true-type or equivalent vector fonts, and lines with a fixed pixel count instead of a specified real length. Eventually the better software will catch up. PS and Lr already have primitive scaling options that help somewhat.

FYI, Windows expects a screen to have about 96ppi, and OS X expects 110ppi.

- Alan



Jun 27, 2015 at 11:49 AM
wtlloyd
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · pros/cons of 4k display vs color accurate NEC display


Excellent summary.


Jun 28, 2015 at 12:03 PM
silvermesa1
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · pros/cons of 4k display vs color accurate NEC display


Thank you for the replies!

I have seen a Nec pa271 monitor in use and it seemed phenomenal to my novice eye. I witnessed the image transform from a raw file to the final print and was quite impressed with the process,the color ability and the larger size of monitor.

I have only seen a 5k monitor at Best Buy on an Imac and had a hard time telling much difference between it and an Nec Pa271. Of course, I only was looking at the canned photos that apple had on the machine and I did not zoom in or anything.

Does the positives in your mind for a 4k monitor used in conjunction with a macbook pro retina outweigh the wide gamut positive of of the Nec Pa271 at this time? Or should a person use and enjoy this slightly older technology and in about 2 years upgrade both laptop and screen again to 4k?

If a person should buy 4k now, what model of 4k monitor do you recommend for similar budget range of $1200.00.

I welcome all thoughts and replies. I have never post processed before, so that is why I'm a bit slow on all of this.



Jun 28, 2015 at 01:44 PM
CreativeStudio
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · pros/cons of 4k display vs color accurate NEC display


I am in a similar situation to the OP here, and have interest in a good monitor for my late '13 Macbook Pro.

Has anyone seen this? http://www.necdisplay.com/p/desktop-monitors/ea275uhd-bk

A new monitor coming from NEC that might be a good mid-grade or better 4K photo editing option, if sRGB colorspace is adequate?

Thoughts?

Gerald



Jun 29, 2015 at 08:00 PM
Alan321
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · pros/cons of 4k display vs color accurate NEC display


Lets face it, sRGB is generally quite adequate in most cases, just as jpg files are - particularly for well exposed images of scenes that do not have too much dynamic range.

However, the camera certainly captures a lot of colours that are outside sRGB and there is a definite benefit in using a wider-gamut monitor to reveal more of what is in the raw file without losing tonal detail. That benefit is even more important if your printer can handle more than sRGB.

The 2D gamut comparisons indicate the extent of fully saturated hues that a monitor can produce but in practice there can be differences at darker at brighter tones too, more likely due to the quality of the monitor rather than its range of hues. You see this when you compare 3D gamut charts of different colour profiles. The 3rd dimension is the brightness ranging from white to mid-tone (where the 2D charts apply) to black.

Apple computers come with a utility for displaying rotatable 3D views of colour gamuts.

- Alan



Jul 01, 2015 at 10:09 PM
Ulff
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · pros/cons of 4k display vs color accurate NEC display


The best of both worlds:
http://www.necdisplay.com/p/desktop-monitors/pa322uhd-bk



Jul 04, 2015 at 04:39 PM
joychris
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · pros/cons of 4k display vs color accurate NEC display


silvermesa1 wrote:
If a person should buy 4k now, what model of 4k monitor do you recommend for similar budget range of $1200.00.

I welcome all thoughts and replies. I have never post processed before, so that is why I'm a bit slow on all of this.


I just picked up this one, I paid $730 two weeks ago, its now under $700:

http://www.amazon.com/Crossover-Computer-Monitor-3840x2160-version/dp/B00VA2X5EU/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1436757481&sr=8-1&keywords=crossover+uhd+monitor

Its a little bigger than I wanted to go - but I was previously working on two 1080p monitors so this one replaces both. I'm on a Mac and reviews said it would do 60hz off a single DP cable. It does and its been a fantastic panel so far. Lots of 4k/UHD monitors have to cycle through ports and take a long time to wake from sleep - this one takes a few seconds.

Its not wide gamut, but it ticks a lot of boxes for a good monitor. Its a VA panel and is very even color-wise all the way to the edges. The same panel is being used in other 40" monitors priced way above this one.

Only two drawbacks so far - the stand doesn't allow for any adjustment and it ships from Korea with menus in Korean - so you have to google translate "language" to find the correct menu item to change it to English. If you can read Korean, the last part is a non-issue.



Jul 12, 2015 at 10:27 PM
silvermesa1
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · pros/cons of 4k display vs color accurate NEC display


I appreciate all thoughts from those who have posted so far.

I am hoping to purchase this monitor over the next few weeks with the xmas holidays coming up. Any other thoughts or user reviews about the Nec pa272w or 4k monitors that would function well with the Mid 2014 Macbook Retina 15" with 750m graphics card that I spoke about in my original post. Lightroom, Elements and Photoshop would be the programs used.

I realize it has only been 6 months since this thread was started but things keep changing it seems.



Nov 20, 2015 at 12:23 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · pros/cons of 4k display vs color accurate NEC display


Alan321 wrote:
4k cons:
- mostly what you've already encountered with your retina screen. The high pixel density makes photos look smaller and sharper but most programs don't give us good, independent control of visual elements such as pictures, text, icons, scroll bars, tool bars, etc.
- most don't have wide gamut
- most or all don't have in-built high-bit processor that the NECs do
- up-market graphics card required to handle the pixel count, the dual screen processing (two halves, left and right), the need for better drivers and perhaps a need for better ports such as display port.
- a graphics card may not
...Show more

Good analysis and why I want my next NEC to have high pixel density, my current NEC 26090 WUXi at native res shows my 5DS images as if they were 90 inches wide.

But one problem with a wide gamut monitor is that it is hard to tell what people in the sRGB world are seeing when you do web presentations.




Nov 20, 2015 at 12:35 PM
Alan321
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · pros/cons of 4k display vs color accurate NEC display


Alan321 wrote:
4k cons:
- mostly what you've already encountered with your retina screen. The high pixel density makes photos look smaller and sharper but most programs don't give us good, independent control of visual elements such as pictures, text, icons, scroll bars, tool bars, etc.
- most don't have wide gamut
- most or all don't have in-built high-bit processor that the NECs do
- up-market graphics card required to handle the pixel count, the dual screen processing (two halves, left and right), the need for better drivers and perhaps a need for better ports such as display port.
- a graphics card may not
...Show more
ben egbert wrote:
Good analysis and why I want my next NEC to have high pixel density, my current NEC 26090 WUXi at native res shows my 5DS images as if they were 90 inches wide.

But one problem with a wide gamut monitor is that it is hard to tell what people in the sRGB world are seeing when you do web presentations.


Not so, Ben. It is dead easy to switch your monitor to sRGB when required. It should look much the same anyway, except that you'll lose or alter the out-of-gamut colours. The main trick is to save a version of the file for sRGB and embed the sRGB profile in it for good measure. Keep your own version of the file as Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB or whatever it is you like to use. I would suggest Adobe RGB for jpg files and ProPhoto for raw files.

What makes aRGB files look so garish on sRGB monitors is not being aware of the colour profile and/or not being able to utilise it. Some browsers can handle non-sRGB files so long as the profile is embedded in the file; if nothing else they'll map it to sRGB which is probably close to what their monitor profile should be. Windows just cannot be helped because it is too colour-dumb, but OS X utilities are colour profile aware.

- Alan



Nov 22, 2015 at 06:31 AM
ben egbert
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · pros/cons of 4k display vs color accurate NEC display


My monitor is old, about 8 years I think. I do have the latest Spectraview software and a Nec specific Xrite. But if I just use the monitor controls to go to sRGB it changes the appearance of an image that is already assigned sRGB. Or I can calibrate to sRGB and save as a custom cal, but I have no control over brightness.

Anyway, I have been told in the past that NEC only simulates sRGB.

Edit. I just went into the cal targets a different way and found a way to set brightness. However, one has to assume that the web users who don't calibrate are probably at default brightness which is probably at least 150.

In any event, I use 80 and 5K when working prints, and that is the wrong setting for general web browsing.



Nov 22, 2015 at 11:29 AM
Alan321
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · pros/cons of 4k display vs color accurate NEC display


I use about 90 Cd/m2 and 6500K for prints, and various other settings for general viewing and printing, up to about 140 / 6500. It was very simple to pick one of the other combinations and SpectraView II would set the parameters and the appropriate profile. This could include a switch between Adobe RGB and sRGB, normal contrast and low contrast (the latter for matte prints), and so on.

Unfortunately, with recent computer upgrades I have lost the ability to use SpectraView II because my installation disc is on the other side of the country. So is my printer, for that matter. For now I just use my Dell 24" 4k almost-aRGB monitor.

I'm pretty sure that Spectraview had a controller window that let me make the selections. If not, then it must have been an Eizo feature. I haven't used my NEC 2690 for several years but I am certain that it was not a difficult thing to change configurations on the fly.

For your web-only viewers you could produce a tone chart that lets them pick a suitable brightness/contrast to help get the best from their monitor. Assume sRGB but tell them what brightness/contrast to use and they can set it directly or with the aid of the tone chart. If they can see all of the different darks and brights on the chart then they can expect to see the photos properly too.

- Alan



Nov 23, 2015 at 01:13 PM
ben egbert
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · pros/cons of 4k display vs color accurate NEC display


Alan321 wrote:
I use about 90 Cd/m2 and 6500K for prints, and various other settings for general viewing and printing, up to about 140 / 6500. It was very simple to pick one of the other combinations and SpectraView II would set the parameters and the appropriate profile. This could include a switch between Adobe RGB and sRGB, normal contrast and low contrast (the latter for matte prints), and so on.

Unfortunately, with recent computer upgrades I have lost the ability to use SpectraView II because my installation disc is on the other side of the country. So is my printer, for that
...Show more

I have found out how to change brightness for sRGB cal using Spectraview it is buried in the temperature setting window. I have another post asking what brightness to use. I am currently trying 120 which looks about right to me in my dark viewing environment.

Just getting people to click on my images is hard enough, asking them to view a tone chart is probably not going to happen. I mostly post at the FM landscape forum or critique or 500PX.

So with just one chance, I want it to be the best shot. But the other side of this is when I view other peoples stuff.




Nov 23, 2015 at 01:32 PM
Alan321
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · pros/cons of 4k display vs color accurate NEC display


Well then I suggest that 140 Cd/m2 should be ok.

Unless the photo is mostly white it will look a lot darker than the 140 suggests, but neither too dark nor too bright.

If you go much brighter then you'll burn your eyes out and that is not worth doing for the sake of ill-informed viewers.

If I was working on Office documents then I would want to use something more like 120 or 110 because of the mostly white background, but those viewers of yours would still be using way higher brightness than that. How long we (and they) look at the monitor also affects how much brightness we (and they) can tolerate.

One thing for sure is that 90 is too dark. It is best used to match print brightness for indoor viewing conditions while tweaking an image destined for print - after you have made the primary edits at a higher brightness level. It looks way too drab for most photos that will be viewed on-screen but at least you won't get too surprised about print darkness.




Nov 24, 2015 at 08:19 AM





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