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Archive 2015 · Moire? 5Dsr.

  
 
Finman06
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Moire? 5Dsr.


Hi all, I'm going to purchase one of these, either the 5Ds or the 5Dsr. My question is about the moire. How much of a problem is this in the 5dsr? I've read where one user had a hard time creating it. I shoot anything from fashion to nature and yes birds. Will it be a big problem with feathers or just occasional?? After dropping nearly $4K, I would like the most detail available for my needs. I've done a lot of research and looked at every image I can find from both of these cameras but can't find any moire in feathers yet in the 5Dsr. I'm ready to pull the trigger on one of these. Any thoughts? Thanks,


Jun 23, 2015 at 06:36 PM
dolina
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Moire? 5Dsr.


Toy with the RAW https://www.dropbox.com/s/055k4we7ba4ajla/EF%20200mm%20f-2L%20IS%20USM_paolodolina%201.CR2?dl=0


More RAWs to toy with https://www.dropbox.com/sh/zv8w5jb2kvdkjy8/AABqNvKVjcRvBRpDeX67vDf3a?dl=0


Moire by alabang, on Flickr

Edited on Jun 23, 2015 at 07:18 PM · View previous versions



Jun 23, 2015 at 06:39 PM
Finman06
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Moire? 5Dsr.


Dolina, thanks for the links to your raw shots. That's pretty bad in the fabric. Will the LR5 moire tool take that out? I don't have it (yet). Do you or anyone else have any bird shots with moire?? Thanks again.


Jun 23, 2015 at 07:17 PM
dolina
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Moire? 5Dsr.


I dont use Lightroom, sadly. Those who do are welcome to toy with the moire.

I honestly believed that at 50MP it would not be a problem.



Jun 23, 2015 at 07:19 PM
Sneakyracer
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Moire? 5Dsr.


Last year I was doing a corporate shoot and got some nasty moire on several of the images of a suit that had this very fine stripe pattern. This was using the 5D3. Lightroom moire removal tool took care of quickly.

Point is when conditions are right you can get moire with just about any digital camera with a bayer pattern sensor.

The higher pixel density of the 5DSr should make that even less likely. There is much less interpretation of color going on.



Jun 23, 2015 at 08:20 PM
alundeb
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Moire? 5Dsr.


CaptureOne 8 Moire tool:

http://i306.photobucket.com/albums/nn242/Overflate/Canon_5DSR_C1moiretool01_zps6zxt5in6.png



Jun 24, 2015 at 12:14 AM
dolina
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Moire? 5Dsr.


Thanks alun. Not as bad at less than 3mp and probably unnoticeable at 50mp


Jun 24, 2015 at 12:27 AM
J_ph
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Moire? 5Dsr.


dpreview has the comparison up for both the 5ds and 5dsr, look at the etching to the left of center, the area around the dog shows moire. Both flavors of the Canon appear to handle moire better than the Nikon. Also, to the right of center the diminishing lines resolution chart around "50" shows moire too.

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-5ds-sr/5



Jun 24, 2015 at 08:51 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Moire? 5Dsr.


Finman06 wrote:
Hi all, I'm going to purchase one of these, either the 5Ds or the 5Dsr. My question is about the moire. How much of a problem is this in the 5dsr? I've read where one user had a hard time creating it. I shoot anything from fashion to nature and yes birds. Will it be a big problem with feathers or just occasional?? After dropping nearly $4K, I would like the most detail available for my needs. I've done a lot of research and looked at every image I can find from both of these cameras but can't find any
...Show more

The camera is so new that it is difficult to draw conclusions specific to the 5Ds and 5Ds R themselves.

I have a 5Ds R but I suspect that the final difference in resolution between the two 50MP sensor systems is going to be very, very minor, especially after taking photographs through post-processing workflows optimized for each camera — likely including slightly different approaches to sharpening. One bottom line is that both are capable of producing very high resolution photographs. Unless you are truly pushing the outer boundaries of resolution in very large prints, from photographs made with a great deal of care, and then post-processed in sophisticated ways... the difference it likely immaterial.

We can make some projections based on what we know from other cameras that either use or do not use AA filtering. For most photographers in most scenarios, the lack of AA filtering is unlikely to create a problem and the appearance of aliasing artifacts (such as moire) is extremely rare. One of my previous cameras is an AA-filter-free camera, and it is simply not an issue for me.

It also is not a binary, in which you will get aliasing artifacts without AA filtering and you won't if you have it. I have encountered aliasing issues with cameras that do have AA filtering, including the 5DII. Fortunately, there are post-processing filtering techniques that will handle almost all instances of the issue. (Before deciding to get the "R" model, I tested this using some test charts that had been shot with the 5Ds R and which showed clear aliasing artifacts.)

If I were in your shoes and doubts remained, I would just go ahead and get the 5Ds. It will be great when it comes to resolution.

Dan



Jun 24, 2015 at 09:44 AM
gqllc007
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Moire? 5Dsr.


So what is the Lightroom moire tool? I have lightroom 5 and was unaware of a tool for it?? Also sorry i dont want to hijack the thread


Jun 24, 2015 at 09:56 AM
snapsy
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Moire? 5Dsr.


J_ph wrote:
dpreview has the comparison up for both the 5ds and 5dsr, look at the etching to the left of center, the area around the dog shows moire. Both flavors of the Canon appear to handle moire better than the Nikon. Also, to the right of center the diminishing lines resolution chart around "50" shows moire too.

http://www.dpreview.com/previews/canon-eos-5ds-sr/5


Here are all the places I see moiré in dpreview's studio scene of the 5DS-R:

* Horizontal resolution chart
* Black and White photo of artist scene
* Feathers (bottom-left)
* Austrian 20 Schilling bill (bottom edge)
* Siemens star
* Colored resolution circles (to the right of the rightmost bottle)
* Text box that's below color checker chart (small text at bottom)



Jun 24, 2015 at 10:07 AM
J_ph
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Moire? 5Dsr.


>Here are all the places

Absolutely, just thought a couple would suffice since it seems that people have been saying "what moire?". I was pleasantly surprised to see that Canon choose a relatively low impact AA filter on the 5ds. The thing that most people seem to be missing is that once you are done fixing moire with postwork you've given up the resolution that you looked to achieve with the "r" and it becomes "arghhhh".



Jun 24, 2015 at 11:24 AM
snapsy
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Moire? 5Dsr.


J_ph wrote:
>Here are all the places

Absolutely, just thought a couple would suffice since it seems that people have been saying "what moire?". I was pleasantly surprised to see that Canon choose a relatively low impact AA filter on the 5ds. The thing that most people seem to be missing is that once you are done fixing moire with postwork you've given up the resolution that you looked to achieve with the "r" and it becomes "arghhhh".


I agree, the 5DS's AA filter looks to be about the same strength as the D800, which was measured to be about 75% of full strength. Both appear to gently taper frequencies near nyquist.



Jun 24, 2015 at 11:44 AM
dhphoto
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Moire? 5Dsr.


How many different types of finished media, meaning inkjet prints, photographic prints or whatever (not viewing at 100% on a monitor) will really be able to show a difference between a 5DS and a 5DSR image at ANY size?


Jun 24, 2015 at 12:15 PM
atodzia
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Moire? 5Dsr.


I downloaded the RAW files of DP Reviews studio scene of both the 5DS and 5DSR and converted them both the same way in Capture One and then opened up the 8 bit TIFF files side by side in Photoshop. At 100% I could see a slight difference is sharpness/resolution between the two, with the moiré being worse in the 5DRS (and they both had moiré). But when I resized both to 70% I couldn't see a difference in sharpness or detail. I guess the next test would be do print of the same crop of a each file to see if there is a noticeable difference.


Jun 24, 2015 at 12:29 PM
J_ph
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Moire? 5Dsr.


dhphoto wrote:
How many different types of finished media, meaning inkjet prints, photographic prints or whatever (not viewing at 100% on a monitor) will really be able to show a difference between a 5DS and a 5DSR image at ANY size?


It will be more likely that you'd see moire in a print than the difference in resolution between the S and R models.



Jun 24, 2015 at 12:35 PM
dhphoto
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Moire? 5Dsr.


J_ph wrote:
It will be more likely that you'd see moire in a print than the difference in resolution between the S and R models.


The point I was trying to make is that once you get up to that sort of size of image the reproduction technique is going to result in less detail anyway - the best digital photo printer with the best photo paper, the finest ink-jet are all going to soften the image compared to what is on the monitor. Certainly any litho reproduction is going to be much softer still.

So therefore any perceived gains in the 5DSR are going to be lost anyway, unless your sole purpose is looking at 100% (or bigger) crops on a monitor.

So as far as moire is concerned it would just be easier to get a 5Ds as you aren't going to lose any IQ in the long run, once the shots are actually used.



Jun 24, 2015 at 12:41 PM
alundeb
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Moire? 5Dsr.


What I like most about the 5DS R files compared to the 5DS files is not the small increase in actuance per se. That can easily be mitigated with sharpening. It is the side effect of less sharpening that means lower noise. Sharpening to this degree enhances noise about the same level as one ISO stop or one stop shadow pushing.

I also find arguments about the small significance of this or that to have two sides. If we add up all the insignificances of slightly lower MP, slighlty less sharp lenses, slightly more diffraction and slightly higher noise, we end up with a visible difference. So I want to maximize all factors at the same time to get the best output.



Jun 24, 2015 at 12:53 PM
J_ph
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Moire? 5Dsr.


>The point I was trying to make is that once you get up to that sort of size of image the reproduction technique is going to result in less detail anyway

agreed. All of what you have mentioned is why there should always be a device dependent sharpening at the output stage. If you are pushing the limits in print size and you don't have moire, or high ISO noise you could see a difference. But as you mentioned the number of times that is relevant will be few. Noise, moire, camera/mirror shake, and focus issues will kill more detail than the difference between the 2 cameras. If you only shoot landscapes without any man-made objects, on a tripod at a low ISO, the R is perfect. It's just not what I do.

regards

j



Jun 24, 2015 at 01:01 PM
dhphoto
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Moire? 5Dsr.


I would be very interested to see the difference between two large prints made with the two cameras. IMHO the difference would be very small if visible at all


Jun 24, 2015 at 01:08 PM
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