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Archive 2015 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

oldschool15
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

Hi Guys

I went to shoot some shots for a white water kayaking event couple days ago. And according to Canon's user manual the AF point expansion 4 or 8, is a way to go for this type of activity. (page 19 of the 7D M2 AF guide, showing an image of a kayaker, with the 8 points expansion on him),

I said to myself, let's start with that, so I set my camera to AF expansion 8 points, and after 20 shots or so I have noticed that 90% of them was blurred. So I quickly switched to AF single point in the middle, and 50 shots or so later most of them came out great.

My question is; is that possible that the focus was thrown off, cause one of the surround point was hitting the rapids? I have later on tried it again on gulls flying close to the water, and the same thing happened. Most of the shots were unusable.

Not to blame Canon, but if so shouldn't they be aware of that? And not promote this type of setting for certain activities.

Thanks a lot guys

Jun 19, 2015 at 03:02 PM

uz2work
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

My experience has been that 8 point focus expansion (and 4 point expansion) can be very useful, but, when shooting around moving water, you need to be careful because the AF system can easily mistake the water for the intended subject when those expanded focus points extend beyond the intended subject and onto the water. So, I think that your assessment of the situation is likely spot on.

Jun 19, 2015 at 03:21 PM

oldschool15
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

uz2work wrote:
My experience has been that 8 point focus expansion (and 4 point expansion) can be very useful, but, when shooting around moving water, you need to be careful because the AF system can easily mistake the water for the intended subject when those expanded focus points extend beyond the intended subject and onto the water. So, I think that your assessment of the situation is likely spot on.

Thank you, i believe so too...My experience with multiple points so far had taught me, that as good as those multi points are, better use them with a very clear and unobstructed background.

Jun 19, 2015 at 04:53 PM

uz2work
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

oldschool15 wrote:
Thank you, i believe so too...My experience with multiple points so far had taught me, that as good as those multi points are, better use them with a very clear and unobstructed background.

In the 7 months that I've had the 7D Mark II, 8 point focus expansion has been my most commonly used mode, and I've been very impressed with how well the camera's AF system has done in that mode, and that is even with very busy backgrounds, but I think that moving water is a special case, and I suspect that it is, in fact, the movement of the water that can fool the AF system.

Jun 19, 2015 at 05:10 PM

oldschool15
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

uz2work wrote:
In the 7 months that I've had the 7D Mark II, 8 point focus expansion has been my most commonly used mode, and I've been very impressed with how well the camera's AF system has done in that mode, and that is even with very busy backgrounds, but I think that moving water is a special case, and I suspect that it is, in fact, the movement of the water that can fool the AF system.

I love this camera very much, but I tend to be having problems with BIF...I am not putting the blame on the camera as much as on my lens (Tamron 150-600mm). What case are you using with the 8 point focus expansion?

Jun 19, 2015 at 06:30 PM

uz2work
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

oldschool15 wrote:
I love this camera very much, but I tend to be having problems with BIF...I am not putting the blame on the camera as much as on my lens (Tamron 150-600mm). What case are you using with the 8 point focus expansion?

I'm a firm believer that, with any camera, the default settings are the default settings for a reason, and that reason is that they are settings that should work well in most situations. With every one of the new DSLRs that I've owned in the last dozen or so years, I've started out using default AF settings for a good period of time, and, if I make changes from defaults, it is only after (a) I'm thoroughly familiar with how the default settings perform, (b) I have a thorough understanding of what changes from defaults should do, and (c) I have a well-understood reason for changing from the defaults. This strategy has worked well for me with all of the dozen or so DSLRs that I've owned, including several 1-series bodies.

Thus, with the 7D Mark II, I began with all default AF settings, including Case 1. Now, 7 months later, I'm still using Case 1 exclusively because it seems to have done very well in every situation that I've come across, including fast moving and slow moving subjects, subjects moving erratically, subjects moving toward the camera, subjects moving laterally across the field of view, etc.

Jun 19, 2015 at 07:05 PM

oldschool15
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

uz2work wrote:
I'm a firm believer that, with any camera, the default settings are the default settings for a reason, and that reason is that they are settings that should work well in most situations. With every one of the new DSLRs that I've owned in the last dozen or so years, I've started out using default AF settings for a good period of time, and, if I make changes from defaults, it is only after (a) I'm thoroughly familiar with how the default settings perform, (b) I have a thorough understanding of what changes from defaults should do, and (c) I...Show more →

Makes sense, thanks for your help.

Jun 19, 2015 at 07:26 PM

ggreene
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

I like the wide zone AF. It does particularly well when you are trying to stay locked on the foreground subject. I'm not really a birder but in just testing it out with whatever happens to be flying around (even some dragonflies) it seems to work really well. I am hoping the 5D4 and 1DX2 get that mode as well. I want it for low light gymnastics where I can lock on the gymnast on the beam with fans in the background.

Jun 19, 2015 at 08:11 PM

uz2work
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

ggreene wrote:
I like the wide zone AF. It does particularly well when you are trying to stay locked on the foreground subject. I'm not really a birder but in just testing it out with whatever happens to be flying around (even some dragonflies) it seems to work really well. I am hoping the 5D4 and 1DX2 get that mode as well. I want it for low light gymnastics where I can lock on the gymnast on the beam with fans in the background.

My experience has been that wide zone (and zone) are a disaster when shooting a bird (or other subject) on water or flying over water because the camera will, in most cases, choose to focus on the moving water in front of the subject.

I've found little use for the zone and wide zone modes, but, if I were to use them, it would be in a situation where there was nothing in the foreground and where the subject was filling a large portion of the frame, which might well be the case in your gymnastics situation.

Jun 19, 2015 at 08:20 PM

ggreene
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

I can't speak to water but I found the wide zone tracking pretty solid for birds (mostly blue jays and doves) with woods in the background. I had more keepers then with 4 or 8 expansion points at least with my hand held technique.

The good thing about the 7D2/1DX/5D4 AF is you can choose what works for you.

Jun 19, 2015 at 08:31 PM

Imagemaster
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

oldschool15 wrote:
Not to blame Canon, but if so shouldn't they be aware of that? And not promote this type of setting for certain activities.

Don't blame Canon because the focus points are working correctly. 4 or 8 expansion points will be great for shooting kayakers. There is a big IF though. If there are sparkles on the background water, an expansion point will focus on that because it has more contrast than the subject.

Cameras don't have brains, but you do.

Jun 19, 2015 at 08:58 PM

Shutterbug2006
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

oldschool15 wrote:
Hi Guys

I went to shoot some shots for a white water kayaking event couple days ago. And according to Canon's user manual the AF point expansion 4 or 8, is a way to go for this type of activity. (page 19 of the 7D M2 AF guide, showing an image of a kayaker, with the 8 points expansion on him),

I said to myself, let's start with that, so I set my camera to AF expansion 8 points, and after 20 shots or so I have noticed that 90% of them was blurred. So I quickly switched to AF single point...Show more →

Here's another guide you can review, in case nobody has mentioned it yet - EOS 7D Mark II AF-Setting Guidebook (Detailed explainations of how to master the 65-point cross-type AF)

http://downloads.canon.com/camera/brochures/EOS_7D_Mark_II_AF_guide_CUSA_9-2014.pdf

Jun 20, 2015 at 04:59 PM

oldschool15
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

Shutterbug2006 wrote:
Here's another guide you can review, in case nobody has mentioned it yet - EOS 7D Mark II AF-Setting Guidebook (Detailed explainations of how to master the 65-point cross-type AF)

http://downloads.canon.com/camera/brochures/EOS_7D_Mark_II_AF_guide_CUSA_9-2014.pdf

Thanks for the link, but it doesn't seem to be working.

Jun 20, 2015 at 07:10 PM

oldschool15
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

Imagemaster wrote:
Don't blame Canon because the focus points are working correctly. 4 or 8 expansion points will be great for shooting kayakers. There is a big IF though. If there are sparkles on the background water, an expansion point will focus on that because it has more contrast than the subject.

Cameras don't have brains, but you do.

I don't blame Canon, i just say that water with multi focus points could be a tricky situation.

Jun 20, 2015 at 07:10 PM

Shutterbug2006
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

oldschool15 wrote:
Thanks for the link, but it doesn't seem to be working.

http://learn.usa.canon.com/resources/articles/2014/eos7dmk2_afGuidebook.shtml

Jun 20, 2015 at 09:46 PM

oldschool15
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

Thanks, that could be useful.

Jun 21, 2015 at 11:20 AM

Imagemaster
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

oldschool15 wrote:
i just say that water with multi focus points could be a tricky situation.

Which is one of those situations that can fall under the following comments in most every Canon owners manual:

Subjects difficult to focus:

- very low-contrast subjects: blue sky, solid-color walls, etc.

- subjects in very low light

- extremely backlit or reflective subjects: e.g. car with a highly reflective body

- near and far subjects covered by an AF point: e.g. animal in a cage

- repetitive patterns: e.g. skyscraper windows, computer keyboards, etc.

In such cases, do one of the following:

1. With One-Shot AF, focus on an object at the same distance as the subject and lock the focus before composing.

2. Set the lens focus mode switch to MF and focus manually.

Jun 21, 2015 at 12:46 PM

Alan321
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

Be sure that you have the designated (central) AF sensor on the intended target when you start the AF or else the AF system will track the wrong thing. It generally starts with the AF sensor that you designate as the centre of the group (which usually defaults to the central AF sensor) and then uses the surrounding expansion AF sensors to cope with poor tracking on your part and unexpected lateral motion by the subject. If your aim was off when you half pressed the shutter button or pressed the * button to activate the AF then it might be trying to track the front or back of the kayak instead.

Sometimes it is hard to notice that your aim is off because you can see that the target is within the group of AF sensors, but it needs to be under the individual designated AF sensor for best results.

Furthermore, it really can help noticeably to ensure that the focus system is accurately tuned for best result with each and every lens that you use. You can think that AF is usually ok when in fact a bit of tuning effort can improve it. Check out the dot-tune AF tuning method here on this forum.

- Alan

Jun 21, 2015 at 01:10 PM

qc_mountain
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

When i do kayaker's or surfer's with my 7D Mkii i always set a AF single point in Ai Servo ,and it does the job i never lost track of the target even if splash of water come between me and the target , even if the surfer come's toward or away from me it is always on track , surfer's tend to move's more left to right on the wave , kayaker's move's more back or front of the wave.

Francois

Jun 21, 2015 at 09:33 PM

uz2work
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · 7D Mark 2 surround AF points

Alan321 wrote:
Be sure that you have the designated (central) AF sensor on the intended target when you start the AF or else the AF system will track the wrong thing. It generally starts with the AF sensor that you designate as the centre of the group (which usually defaults to the central AF sensor) and then uses the surrounding expansion AF sensors to cope with poor tracking.

- Alan

What you are saying is correct...if you are using 4 point focus expansion or 8 point focus expansion, but it is not correct if you are using the zone or large zone modes. With the zone or large zone modes, the user has no control over what focus point within the zone or large zone is used to lock in focus and to initiate tracking. Instead, with those two modes, the camera chooses the focus point used to initiate tracking, and it does so with a bias towards whatever is closest to the camera.

That is the reason why I'm reluctant to use zone or large zone focus. For me, letting the camera choose the initial focus point and hoping that the one that it chooses is one that is actually on the intended subject is giving too much control to the camera. If I were to use either of those two modes, it would only be if I was certain that there was nothing in the background that might allow the camera to "guess" incorrectly with regard to what the intended subject is. And there is no question that I would not consider using either of those modes when splashing water is a part of the background.

Jun 21, 2015 at 09:57 PM

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